Ian On The Red Dot

There seems to be some discussion about this particular phrase “Virginity is a state of mind” with regards to the controversial CSE programme by AWARE. One of the issue with this statement is the total absurdity of it from a physical POV. If a girl has had penetrative sex (i.e. had a penis inserted into a vagina or even the ass), obviously she is no longer a virgin, at least from the perspective that virginity is defined by the physical state that an individual can be in.

From a progammer’s POV, the class Human has a boolean field virginity with default value true. After the method insertPenisIntoVagina (or insertPenisIntoAss) has been called, the boolean field virginity is changed to false.

Yet being a virgin and conversely not being a virgin, in some sectors of our society, carries a whole lot of connatations than just being a change in physical state.

Go to Google and enter this as a search term ‘define:virginity‘.

Some of the results:

virgin – pure: in a state of sexual virginity; “pure and vestal modesty”; “a spinster or virgin lady”; “men have decreed that their women must be pure and virginal”

virginal – untouched or undefiled

Now, let’s use google and search with this term ‘define: undefiled‘.

immaculate: free from stain or blemish

Again from a computer programmer’s POV, the class Human has a boolean field called ‘moral person’ (i.e good person, the kind you want your son or daughter to marry) with default value true.

To some segments of our society, when you call the method insertPenisIntoVagina, the boolean field ‘moral person’ becomes false.

Do you know what shame and guilt can do to a person? There are very real esteem issues that can arise when we keep drumming into our youth that just because they are no longer virgins they are defiled and not pure. Once you tell someone they have lost something, it is much easier for them to behave in a manner consistent with not having it than actually be encouraged to get it back. Basically, you tell kids them losing virginity equal to them being delinquents (cos only immoral spawn of the devil will have premarital sex) they will behave so.

Well, the way some of us approach the issue of virginity dumps a whole lot of guilt, shame and esteem issues on our kids. Now, this can be bad in a whole lot of ways.

Not So Hypothetical Scenario 1.

The young naive girl has sex once because she thinks she loves a guy. They break up. She moves on to another relationship. This time she wants to value herself more and not just be used as some fuck toy. The guy tells her, ‘why so uptight. I mean, not say you are a virgin. Just bang bang only what. I mean, you love me right?’

Now she looks at herself and goes, ‘Yeah, I mean, it is true. I’ve done it once. What’s the difference between doing it a second time. Not like I can reset my physical state. So yeah, I lose it already might as well just do. After all, I do love this guy.’

Not So Hypothetical Scenario 2.

Similar to the above, but this time, the guy is slightly nastier. ‘Don’t be a bitch lah. You think you damn fucking atas and pure is it. I know you not virgin. Just 1 fuck also act like your pussy is some treasure cave that cannot open.’

The girl thinks, ‘Yeah, I’m trash. I mean, my mom and sunday school teacher told me that if I lose my virginity, I’m no longer pure. I’m dirty. He is probably right, I mean, it isn’t like I haven’t done it before. Maybe I’m being too uptight.’

Not all of us grow up in the same environment. Some of us are taught to value something more than others. Just because someone isn’t a virgin doesn’t make a person any less moral. But certain segments of our society place such importance in this physical state that it can cloud how we look at someone else – we see, not someone who might have had sex because they thought it was a natural extension of being in love, but a filthy dirty corrupted individual who just couldn’t control himself or herself.

‘Virginity is a state of mind’ allows people to do a soft reset. Yes, the physical state may not have changed, but that one decision in the past does not need to affect how they approach future situations when they are put in a position where sex is going to happened (or pressure is applied to make it happen).

From a computer programmer’s POV, just because the boolean field ‘virginity’ is equal to ‘false’ does not mean that the boolean field ‘will_have_sex’ is set to true always. The soft reset is a decrease of the integer variable ‘likely_to_have_sex_because_of_past_decisions’ to a number close to zero if not zero.

‘Virginity is a state of mind’ also allows those who value virginity and attach such strong moral attitudes to it to separate another individual’s past physical actions and current state of moral and emotional being.

At the end of the day, Christians can’t diss the statement ‘Virginity is a state of mind’ when they attach moral values and principles to the physical state of being a virgin because they clearly have shown that ‘Virginity is NOT just a physical state’ and if not just physical, and it is only our mind (and ok, maybe our soul) that can perceive moral implications of our actions, it is clearly that the Christians believe ‘Virginity IS INDEED ALSO a state of mind’.

Further Thoughts:

I realized that I might have been approaching this statement from the wrong POV. There is some evidence that there are youths who JUST engage in oral and anal sex to MAINTAIN THEIR VIRGINITY. These youths have a narrow definition of what sex is – to them, oral and anal sex is NOT SEX because they aren’t losing their virginity doing it (i.e. the penis is not inserted into a vagina). In a way, their definition of sex is like Bill Clinton’s.

But I digress.

What this narrow definition of sex leads to is a state of mind where, although they are engaging in sexual activities, the youths think they are safe because they are, after all based on the traditional definition of virginity, still virgins.

Who cares that Oprah is using Twitter? Guys would probably be more interested in these 10 Porn Stars who use Twitter. In case you are wondering, definitely NSFW.

via:fimoculous

Notes:
There is a post there, somewhere, about porn stars using Twitter from a guy (i.e. me) who grew up in a Christian family. That post would be coming from the same place which led me to make this comment (not verbatim) at BlogOut2009 to litford and patlaw.

“Growing up in a traditional Christian church, I have been conditioned to believe that people with tattoos are deviant and individuals who are desecrating the temple of God and thus must also be morally corrupt.”

In case you are wondering, some of the nicest people I’ve met are lesbians, gays and people covered with tattoos.

Reality doesn’t gel with what is preached from the pulpit and whispered in the dining halls of churches.

Sicarii has commented on an article about religion in Singapore. I didn’t read the article but that’s not going to stop me from taking issue with what he wrote about the article.

He wrote this:

Make them relevant and practical for 21st-century living. Why does that sound oddly familiar to me? That’s “modern church-speak” for little or no Gospel, no preaching of sin, no true repentance, only health, wealth and prosperity in addition to motivational speeches on how to be the “head and not the tail” to “influence the marketplace”.

Total nonsense. At least from my own personal experience as a relatively devoted member of City Harvest Church for two years of my life.

I concede that City Harvest Church talks about health, wealth and prosperity a lot. Arguably too much.

However, to say there is little or no coverage of Gospel, sin and true repentance is total hogwash.

An individual’s Christian life is not just made up of the church service although for most people that’s the main one, if not the only one. However, Christian life is also built on Bible study classes (which CHC conducts), daily individual Bible studies (i.e. quiet time), fasting, praying, cell groups, fellowship with other members and counseling sessions with the cell group leader.

I’m not sure if Sicarii has been a member of CHC long enough to comment on it. Also, like I’ve always said, for a big church, it is not possible for the experience of its members to be uniform. Just like how if you attend many of these traditional churches, you will notice they are also all different from each other.

For me at least, bible study classes, daily individual Bible studies, fasting, praying and the counseling sessions with my cell group leader had a great deal of coverage of Gospel, sin and true repentance.

And in terms of time, those above activities took up more than any church service.

Don’t always be so quick to shoot something down just because it tastes/looks/seems different.

For example, I’ve already a certain perspective on the world. It could probably be right. It is most probably wrong. But I recognize that it is this perspective that makes me see Li Jiawei as a FT and not a citizen. If we could quantify and measure (good) citizenship and Singaporean-ness, Jiawei could probably smack me hands down. Who knows?

I hope people recognize that all these CHC bashers do it from a certain perspective. They already have an idea how Christianity should work. Sure, they like to back it up with the BIBLE and TRADITION and all that jazz, but don’t be fooled. Recognize they do it already carrying a certain perspective about the world based on their own experiences. All these BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES they throw out are just there to substantiate a case they already made in their mind.

Sure, they may be right about some stuff. Even right about everything. But as a reader, be mindful from where they are coming from.

Back to the Gospel, sin and repentance. I’ve always believed that a man should have at least one vice. I’m an overachiever on that regards – I have many vices. During my time in CHC, I’ll say that’s the only time I became master over those vices, or at least, I wasn’t a slave to them for a sustained period.

And I know I didn’t do it cos of my own inner strength. Of course some inner strength had to be there, but it was augmented by the teachings and counseling I was getting from the church leaders, more specifically my cell group leader and her husband. She was doing it all with firm grounding based on biblical principles and by living a life that walked with Christ as an example.

So, I call bullshit on people who judge without actually tasting the pudding.

Talking about false converts, just because the traditional churches don’t evangelize with the ‘flash and bang’ way like CHC and even though they stick to the ‘traditional’ ‘better’ ‘more-old-school-way-of-preaching-grounded-in-biblical-principles’, it doesn’t mean CHC has a monopoly on creating false converts.

I’ll even say they aren’t the ones creating the most false converts. Hell, they aren’t even the ones creating the most damaging false converts.

And believe me, I would know.

Update: Oh…and about social benefits, stay tune for another post about that.

Update 2: I realized that I should mention I last went to any sort of church service about 3 years ago so things in CHC could have changed although I highly doubt it. Anyway, these criticisms against CHC aren’t new – they have been around since I was a member.

Thanks to patlaw for introducing this site Church Marketing Sucks. The site has a four part series titled “Bastards With Bibles”. Read the posts here, here, here and here.

In their book The Soul of the Corporation, Hamid Bouchikhi and John R. Kimberly conclude “that we are in the midst of a transition on a global scale from an era in which the vast majority of people lived with a sense of clarity, continuity, and consistency about their identity–their notion of who they are and how others view them–to an era in which identity is increasingly problematic across all levels of human organization, from the individual person to entire nations or civilizations. The result of this identity crisis is that companies and organizations have now become suppliers of individual and collective identity.”

In an organizational society, individuals are defined by the companies and organizations in which they participate. Today, people are developing much of their sense of self from belonging to, or buying from, companies and organizations.

Losing Our Soul

1. Drift: We forget about what really matters

2. Fragmentation: We split up and deal with smaller matters

It’s one thing to divide and conquer, it’s quite another to split up and say we’ll meet in Heaven.

3. Narcissism: We think we’re all that matters

in the words of Abigail Van Buren, “a hospital for sinners” and “not a museum for saints,”

4. Conflict: We can’t agree on what really matters

Organization as Soul Provider

1. Globalization: We’re connected to everyone, everything, everywhere.

Because we’re connected to everything, we’ve forgotten what it means to be connected to the right things.

2. Options: We have more choices than ever before.

3. Branding: We have a lot of the same stuff all trying to tell us why it’s not the same stuff.

4. Disruption: We prefer shortcuts and convenience.

“In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise.”

Consider these four characteristics of what it looks like when you do know your identity and soul:

1. Loyalty: We’re committed.

2. Identification: We belong

3. Trust: We lack fear

4. Recognition: We’re noticed.

This routine of George Carlin actually crystallized a lot of my thoughts about God and gave more to think about.

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you’d expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would’ve been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say “this guy”, because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he’s at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn’t give a shit. Doesn’t give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn’t give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can’t see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I’m big on that. If I can see something, I don’t know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we’re not setting people on fire simply because they don’t agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There’s no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don’t have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I’m unworthy. Doesn’t tell me I’m a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn’t said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don’t pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn’t presume on our friendship. It’s not polite.

I’ve often thought people treat God rather rudely, don’t you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It’s not nice. And it’s no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you’d really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you’d have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn’t in God’s Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn’t it seem a little arrogant? It’s a Divine Plan. What’s the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here’s something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren’t answered. What do you say? “Well, it’s God’s will.” “Thy Will Be Done.” Fine, but if it’s God’s will, and He’s going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn’t you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It’s all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don’t pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he’s a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn’t fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It’s amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I’ve been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don’t. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit’s foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat’s testicles, it’s all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that’s a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I’m sure you’ll like that. Then there’s Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn’t care for, by the way. And finally, I’ve always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? “All the king’s horses and all the king’s men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again.” That’s because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I’m gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody’s okay? All right, tell you what, I’ll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I’ve got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I’m blind. I’m blind, oh, now I’m okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

God is imaginary. 50 simple proofs.

It makes you wonder: If God has the time and the will to answer these trivial prayers, manipulating the mustard molecules in response to a housewife’s prayer, then what the heck is God doing ignoring the billions of people on this planet who are living in stark, abject poverty? It is when you think about this simple question that you realize how imaginary God is and how delusional and completely self-centered Christians can be.

via: metafilter

There was a comment for this post which I found interesting. Below are the parts I want to highlight

Loving the Lord means obedience. Disobedience is rebellion, akin to witchcraft.

Loving the Lord isn’t about wanting to hang out with the Dude.

And obedience is all about our human will. Will you or will you not obey? If you obey, you love. If you disobey, you are not loving.

Firstly, obviously loving the Lord isn’t JUST about wanting to hang out with the Dude. But it would seem rather obvious to me that if I love somebody, or in this case God, I WOULD want to hang out with him. Or if you like, be in his presence. Now, it does seem from the comment I’m supposed to disassociate desire to hang out with love. Gosh, there are some really LONELY BUT LOVED people.

The first and third highlighted parts of the comments confuse me. Is Love the cause and Obedience the effect? Is obedience an expression of my love? Or is Obeying equal to love? Has the person leaving the comment confused obeying to love. I mean, in the army, we all obey our officers, but does that mean we love them. To me obedience seems to be about fear.

Here is the thing… I think these two POVs about our relationship with God are conflicting and cannot coexist:

“If You Obey Me, You Love Me”

If You Love Me, You Will Obey Me”

I have a feeling that a significant number of Christians subscribe to the first POV. Just because they obey God, they think they love him. Some Christians go as far as to say how we feel isn’t important, or rather not as important as our actions – Obedience is more important than what you might be feeling. And if You can force yourself to Obey, that action screams love.

The second POV begs the question about why if I love someone that it will lead automatically to me obeying that someone. Obedience is about deferring to authority while Love is, well love is something else.

When I love someone, it’s probably likely that I would trust that individual. If I trust that individual, it is likely I would defer to the person’s opinions, advice and instructions especially if I have the awareness of my lack of knowledge and experience as oppose to the other. When it comes to knowledge and experience, God is probably the go-to guy.

So, when I love God, I’ll probably be more likely to follow him. Or if you like, I’ll be more likely to obey him. It probably won’t always be easy – our human instincts, lack of wisdom, limited knowledge and most importantly pride could at times hinder us.

Here is the thing…Loving Someone means you are more likely to ‘obey’ that person. Of course, when it comes to God, it should be Always ‘obey’ since God probably knows his shit and a wise person would in his best interest ‘obey’ God.

The way of expressing the second POV, like the first highlighted part of the comment focuses too much on obedience in the context of a hierarchical structure – which to me is just like Christianity as a religion. We are supposed to obey just because the person above says so – the person above says so because the above person says so all the way back to God.

We totally miss the point of how love affects the dynamics of influence.

I’m pretty sure by now, a lot of people will have missed my point. So I’ll stop here. Have a nice day.

I came across material similar to those found on this site explaining the possible pagan origins of Christianity when I was in NS.  Let’s just say that my conversation with my then cell group leader was one mother-long conversation.

POCM answers these questions by looking at what ancient people wrote about ancient religion. What the ancient evidence will show you is that ancient western culture had conventional ideas about Gods and their powers and place in the universe. Christianity adopted those ideas.

Ancient Pagans believed in various levels of divinity, with miraculous powers, coming down and going up to its home in the sky. Divine beings cared about people, listened to and answered their prayers. Gave them the power to prophesy. Even gave them a better deal in the eternal life that comes after death.

Christianity is a product of it’s time and place. Christianity is an ancient Pagan religion.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the prosperity gospel since reading Sicarii’s post.  I’m going to share what I understand about it as learned from City Harvest Church and what I believe.  As usual the standard disclaimer – I am what is commonly termed a backslider so please read this with, you know, a whole lot of salt.

Before that, let me share two points that Sicarii has problems with.

1.

Sicarii faults the teaching of ‘the more you sow in terms of giving to the church or to a teacher’s ministry, you’ll be blessed back 40x, 60x or even 100x of what you sowed.’  He feels that such teaching is sending the message that God’s blessings can be bought.

2.

He also gives two examples of testimonies that he has problems with:

A: “I gave more to the building fund last year, this year I had 20-fold increase in my salary!”

B: “I gave my last $500 on me, today I have a net worth of US$2 million!”

Point 1:  The more you sow in terms of giving, the more you will receive.

Firstly, God’s blessings cannot be bought.  Whatever we receive, we receive because God chose to give to us.

To understand Point 1, let me establish somethings I believe in and I think are relevant when discussing Point 1.

1.  God uses us to bring blessings to this world.
2.  God gives us as much as he thinks we can handle.
3.  God does not want us to give more than we can in terms of actual amounts we can afford to give and that which our faith can sustain.

People working full time in church or doing any of God’s ministries have needs (and even wants) to be met.  When we say that God will take care of them, what we mean is that God will use the other brothers and sisters of the church who are not doing full time work (i.e. working and drawing a salary) to provide for them.

When we say that God will take care of the poor, we are not saying that bread will miraculously drop from the sky, but that these poor will be taken care of by the various ministries which are financed by the brothers and sisters who have the means.

I believe that the people who are better conduits will be given more.

Now, when a church leader asks us to give more and we will be blessed, they are not telling us to invest and get returns.  What they are in fact saying is that the giving shows your willingness to be a (better) conduit and God will then give you more than what you have given so that you can have more to not only take care of your own needs but to give more to the church, ministries and other good works.

Now, giving more doesn’t mean you keep increasing the amounts you give.  What it means is giving more than what you were prepared to give such that what you give is aligned to what your heart is telling you to give.

Let me give you a personal example.  When I used to go to City Harvest Church, there were times when I struggled with how much I should give during offering.  Give everything in the wallet?  Give the biggest note?  Give the usual amount?

Then I realized I never really prayed about the amount.  I was trying to make a purely logical decision.

There were times when I gave only $10 and I was at peace with that.  There were times I gave $50 and felt maybe I wasn’t giving as much as I should.

I believe God puts the amount we should give in our heart.

Out of fear, we don’t give that amount.  Fear that we might need the money for other things.  Fear that after giving we might not have enough.

The thing is, we shouldn’t give out of fear.  But neither should we not give out of fear.

When the church leader says that if we give (sow), God will bless us more in return, my understanding is that the church leader is telling us not to be afraid of sowing more than what we were logically prepared to give but give as much as the Holy Spirit has convicted in our hearts to give and we will be blessed.  The closer we are to the amount the Holy Spirit convicted in us, in a way, is a measure of our faith and willingness to give and God honours that.

To be fair, just going by Sicarii’s example of what the church leaders say when it comes to offering does make it seem like they are just selling an investment plan with really good returns but it needs to be understood that the prosperity gospel is learned not just from sermons or during service.  It is the starting point.  A lot of what I understand to be the prosperity gospel was learned from cell group meetings and one-to-one talks with my cell group leader.

Point 2: Emphasizing how much we have received.

I understand that it might seem crass when people go up and give testimonies about how much God has blessed them.  Firstly, the testimonies given in City Harvest Church isn’t just about financial blessings.  If anyone claims it is, they are being dishonest.  I have heard testimonies about how God has mended relationships, healed people and just do all kinds of other goodness.  Now, if you want to argue that the majority of testimonies are about financial blessings, I can’t defend the church because I don’t have proof it is not so.  I wasn’t counting.  I was busy celebrating every testimony.

Now to address Sicarii faulting the testimonies about financial blessings.  I’m not really sure if he is faulting testimonies of financial blessing per se or that the amount used are too large for his liking.  I would presume it is the latter because he himself have shared about financial blessings.

Why do people talk about the 20-fold increase in salary and their net worth of two million?

Pause.

Actually, such ridiculous large amounts aren’t always thrown around.  I would even question if it’s the norm at CHC.  The testimonies I heard about financial blessings are usually more modest.

Unpause.

There might be a reason why the blessings that are shared are rather substantial in nature.  It is to leave no doubt that only God could have provided it.

Say I give a testimony about how I didn’t have enough money to pay for my medical bills and then out of nowhere my company decided to give me an increment.  Now compare that to a testimony where I say I didn’t have enough for my medical bills and out of nowhere, I got job-hunted and was offered 5 times my current salary.

Which is more likely to be from God?  Actually both.

But the thing is, which leaves less doubt in a human’s mind that it could only be from God?

Now, I understand Sicarii’s concern that throwing such substantial financial blessings in the open might only attract people who want to get rich and not focus on the more important things about God.

But sharing these testimonies isn’t about telling me that God can make me rich.  It is in fact sharing with me how God’s power and blessings have no limit.

Now, Sicarii talks about Jesus Christ’s teaching to lay up treasures in heaven instead of on earth.  I agree with that.  We shouldn’t hoard what we have on earth.  We should give as much as we can on earth to help other people.  The prosperity message again does not conflict with Jesus Christ’s teachings because it isn’t just about how much we can receive from God and then hoard it but about how much we can receive from God and then pass it on.

To end, I just want to say that the prosperity gospel doesn’t exist in isolation.  It has to be part of a bigger framework in our relationship with God and our understanding of that relationship.

And that is indeed the place the prosperity gospel exists in CHC (or at least when I was there).

Woke up and saw this post on ping.sg. Firstly, I LOVE what this guy wrote. Really. I did. Now, I know why I turned my back on Christianity (as a religion). And of course what this post highlighted also helped.

Firstly, I used to go to CHC. I haven’t gone to church for some time. I haven’t read the Bible for some time. Haven’t really prayed except when some of the people I love want to say grace before a meal or when a friend is in need. So maybe I’m not the most qualified person like the gentleman who blogs here to talk about CHC and the prosperity message that everyone is so hung up about.

But damn if I’m not going to say something to defend CHC.

I love his kungfu. Really. I do. First, he says ‘… sermon was going to be the filth that is the prosperity gospel again as is the norm at City Harvest Church.’ then he says ‘… pray for Kong Hee to wake up from his delusion, repent, and start preaching God’s Word instead of the prosperity gospel.’ and then to show us what a nice guy he is ‘You are putting words into my mouth — I did not in any manner condemn Kong Hee nor judge him or the church that he leads.’

I’m being a bit hypocritical here. I have written in such a way on this blog before but this guy is the master.

What is the meaning of condemn? What is the meaning of repent? If you tell a guy he needs to repent haven’t you already judged him.

Jedi mind tricks. The force is strong in this one.

But how does this have anything to do with defending CHC. Nothing. I was digressing and I apologize.

City Harvest Church does place a strong emphasis on the prosperity message. Is it the only message? No. It isn’t. Is it the message that appears at every sermon? Well, I haven’t done a statistical analysis on the notes I have taken during the time I was a member, but I would be able to agree that it is a message that is kinda always mentioned.

Is that a bad thing?

No really. Is it a bad thing?

There are many ways to say the same thing. The first way is this.

You are a sinner. Of no fault of yours, you were born a sinner and you are condemned to this bloody terrible place called Hell. And since you are a Singaporean used to aircon, you are screwed. Cos Hell is hot. HOT. And if you have blabber problems, whahaha, you are really screwed, cos hell is condemnation with no relief. NO RELIEF. Get it? But don’t worry, cos if you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be saved. You won’t go to hell. You get to go to heaven! Don’t you want heaven? You can get it. But remember only JC can give it to you. Like the brother here said, work towards your salvation with ‘fear and trembling’.

Pause. You do realized that being a Christian just because I don’t really want to go to hell and I fear some big boy in the sky is almost like being a Christian just because I want to be rich.

Same Difference. Both reasons cheapens Christianity and any sort of relationship one could have with God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit.

There is the other way to say it.

Yup, let’s ignore for a moment this whole inconvenient notion that somehow we are all born sinners. Look at your life now. Are you happy with it? Don’t you wish that there was more meaning to your life. More purpose. Don’t you wish to be able to afford the cost in taking care of your elderly parents. Want to give the best to your children? Want to live life with greater fulfillment and satisfaction instead of instant gratification. Want to travel and see the world? (honestly, nothing wrong with wanting to do that. It isn’t crass or materialistic. If God really created such a beautiful world, I think he would perfectly understand the desire in us to see it) Christianity can give that to you. And so much more. God created us so that we would be able to experience life together with him (or her), share in its joys of exploring, discovery and creating, but things kinda got fucked along the way, but God is here to help us make everything right again. Do you want his help? Jesus came so that we can have life abundantly.

I know some Christians argue that the verse is talking about eternal life. But really, God just wants us to suffer in this one until we die and go to heaven and then we start enjoying from then on? I thought we were born again in this world, when we repent and accept our salvation. Babies yes. But isn’t the born again life starting here? Sure, we need to grow. Sure, we would need to suffer and be tested. But shouldn’t the good life start here. How small your God is if it can only happen when you die and go to heaven. But of course, I agree that the good life can start without being rich in all that is called materialism. But lusting after material wealth isn’t the same as wanting to be prosperous.

The great mistake when commenting on the prosperity message is assuming that it is always about having enough for your car, condo, country club blah blah blah. What arrogance! Do you actually believe when we want more, we all want ‘your more’. Some people just want to be able to study. To have that next meal. To take care of the health costs of their sick relatives. To indulge a bit. To eat nice chocolate. To give that present to a friend they really love.

The prosperity message is preached because there is an understanding that some people can’t even meet certain material needs or enjoy what a lot of us take for granted. Yes, there is nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy more. Hell, there is nothing wrong with wanting to feed a guy before telling him how he can’t live on bread alone.

But you see, no one, no one who condemns City Harvest Church and its prosperity message ever ever talks about the next thing. Yes. The next thing. You can do two things when you are rich (actually a lot of things, but for argument’s sake, I’m simplifying).

1. You can hoard it.

2. You can share it.

Sorry to disappoint you all, but CHC doesn’t advocate 1. In fact, they advocate number 2 to a fault. The leaders in the church (or at least those I know) always talk about having more so that we can be a conduit on this earth to give to others.

It is through us that we can bless others.

The prosperity message is a one-two, left-hand jab, right-hand upper cut move.

Another thing. The blogger talks about how Pastor Kong took the verses out of context. I’m no expert in bible translation, but I think the King James Version came before the English Standard Version.

Which doesn’t really mean a thing.

I just wanted to point out that we can argue all we want about what a verse means when one translation uses a different word compared to another translation and it would be pointless. At least to me. Because I mean, aren’t there other things to consider. Like the source. And how the actual word used in the source was rich in meanings and it was up to the translator’s interpretation that we get the word in the translated version.

So to imply someone is abusing a verse just because the other translated version uses a different word is a bit disingenuous.

Or course, that doesn’t mean the blogger’s argument that the verse was taken out of context is invalid.

Finally about the sermons being no different from self-improvement talks. That is false. Of course, things might have changed now and what he said has validity. Anyway, I couldn’t find the mentioned sermon on the site, so I’ll just use what I know from the past to say this.

Setting goals, achieving them, realizing our best in finances, marriage, relationships and the works is very much relevant to our Christian walk. Our Christian walk is not just about our relationship with Jesus Christ. It is important of course, if not the most important thing. It isn’t just the only thing.

Simple example albeit not a perfect analogy.

Say I love my gf. A lot. But our relationship would be a little stale don’t you think if its spent just walking on the beach, the two of us, just talking about our relationship.

But what if I bring her into other aspects of my life which is also important. Like my career. She plays a part because I try to let her understand the decisions I make. I consult her for the decisions I’m going to make. But I don’t always run back to her. She doesn’t need to be part of every single decision I make. Sometimes, I can be decisive and make some on my own. After all, I got the brains, the training, the reasoning, the knowledge and hopefully the wisdom to do so.

To say our Christian walk is one and not the other is to bring a false dichotomy. Our Christian walk is everything about our life. And how God can be part of it. But God being part of it doesn’t mean every single thing is deferred to God.

A terrible example to use. After the tsunami, a friend asked me why God didn’t do something. Why didn’t he intervene?

And I asked, why should God do anything?

God made us right? He gave us intelligence. He gave us will. He gave us understanding. He gave us the ability to make choices.

The tsunami’s damage could have been mitigated if some places had better warning systems. But no investment was made. Humans made the choice to do nothing about something they had the power to do.

So, how is a church leader teaching us practical steps in self-improvement bringing God into our lives and how is that improving our Christian walk?

Well, in one way, we are learning from a person anointed by Christ. I think there is some power in that.

Secondly, when we live our life well, it is a testament to God, especially when we acknowledge that God had a part to play. But to live it well, we need to know how. Right?

Thirdly, and I’m using what I learned about marriage from CHC here, you got to be able to do both the practical and the spiritual. From what I know, the leaders from CHC always say that in the end, God has to come into the picture.

For example, marriage is not between two people but three. Me, my spouse and God. We were taught how to bring God into the marriage. However, we were also taught practical steps in making the marriage work.

Like:

1. If I stay back after work, I will always inform my wife my whereabouts.

2. Even if there are people in the office, and I claim I’m not attracted to the female colleague, I work where the door is open, the blinds are up.

3. If I have to travel, I bring a male companion instead of a female one. If a female one needs to come, I try to bring three people along and arrange such that different sexes do not share room.

Practical steps. Why does a church need to teach this?

Because it is about accountability. And how accountability has to be part of our life. If we can’t be accountable in stuff like this, how can we be accountable to God.

Take what happens when you get into the car. You believe that God will protect you. You even prayed. But you still wear a seatbelt. It is protection. Practical protection.

You need both. To do the practical stuff and the spiritual stuff. Both has a part.

So, our relationship with God is the most important thing. And we got to work on it. But to work solely on it is a little off. We work on other aspects of our lives and always make sure that God is a part of it. So while, we may not be spending most of our time directly working on the relationship with God, by bringing him into every aspect of our lives, we are indirectly strengthening it.

Like, instead of just talking to my gf about our relationship and how it can be better and always just being only with her, both of us take up a hobby together with our friends. We both learn a skill and while not exactly working on the relationship directly, the relationship grows.

To end, listen to the above mentioned blogger’s advice.

“I shall also pray that you shall learn to discern and seek to study the Bible and learn what God teaches about the Christian life, instead of listening to the apostasy many teachers now falsely teach.”

Remember though, teachers come in all forms, and the pulpit isn’t just in a church.

A blog can be a pulpit too.