Sicarii has commented on an article about religion in Singapore. I didn’t read the article but that’s not going to stop me from taking issue with what he wrote about the article.
He wrote this:
Make them relevant and practical for 21st-century living. Why does that sound oddly familiar to me? That’s “modern church-speak” for little or no Gospel, no preaching of sin, no true repentance, only health, wealth and prosperity in addition to motivational speeches on how to be the “head and not the tail” to “influence the marketplace”.
Total nonsense. At least from my own personal experience as a relatively devoted member of City Harvest Church for two years of my life.
I concede that City Harvest Church talks about health, wealth and prosperity a lot. Arguably too much.
However, to say there is little or no coverage of Gospel, sin and true repentance is total hogwash.
An individual’s Christian life is not just made up of the church service although for most people that’s the main one, if not the only one. However, Christian life is also built on Bible study classes (which CHC conducts), daily individual Bible studies (i.e. quiet time), fasting, praying, cell groups, fellowship with other members and counseling sessions with the cell group leader.
I’m not sure if Sicarii has been a member of CHC long enough to comment on it. Also, like I’ve always said, for a big church, it is not possible for the experience of its members to be uniform. Just like how if you attend many of these traditional churches, you will notice they are also all different from each other.
For me at least, bible study classes, daily individual Bible studies, fasting, praying and the counseling sessions with my cell group leader had a great deal of coverage of Gospel, sin and true repentance.
And in terms of time, those above activities took up more than any church service.
Don’t always be so quick to shoot something down just because it tastes/looks/seems different.
For example, I’ve already a certain perspective on the world. It could probably be right. It is most probably wrong. But I recognize that it is this perspective that makes me see Li Jiawei as a FT and not a citizen. If we could quantify and measure (good) citizenship and Singaporean-ness, Jiawei could probably smack me hands down. Who knows?
I hope people recognize that all these CHC bashers do it from a certain perspective. They already have an idea how Christianity should work. Sure, they like to back it up with the BIBLE and TRADITION and all that jazz, but don’t be fooled. Recognize they do it already carrying a certain perspective about the world based on their own experiences. All these BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES they throw out are just there to substantiate a case they already made in their mind.
Sure, they may be right about some stuff. Even right about everything. But as a reader, be mindful from where they are coming from.
Back to the Gospel, sin and repentance. I’ve always believed that a man should have at least one vice. I’m an overachiever on that regards - I have many vices. During my time in CHC, I’ll say that’s the only time I became master over those vices, or at least, I wasn’t a slave to them for a sustained period.
And I know I didn’t do it cos of my own inner strength. Of course some inner strength had to be there, but it was augmented by the teachings and counseling I was getting from the church leaders, more specifically my cell group leader and her husband. She was doing it all with firm grounding based on biblical principles and by living a life that walked with Christ as an example.
So, I call bullshit on people who judge without actually tasting the pudding.
Talking about false converts, just because the traditional churches don’t evangelize with the ‘flash and bang’ way like CHC and even though they stick to the ‘traditional’ ‘better’ ‘more-old-school-way-of-preaching-grounded-in-biblical-principles’, it doesn’t mean CHC has a monopoly on creating false converts.
I’ll even say they aren’t the ones creating the most false converts. Hell, they aren’t even the ones creating the most damaging false converts.
And believe me, I would know.
Update: Oh…and about social benefits, stay tune for another post about that.
Update 2: I realized that I should mention I last went to any sort of church service about 3 years ago so things in CHC could have changed although I highly doubt it. Anyway, these criticisms against CHC aren’t new - they have been around since I was a member.
saga | 12-Aug-08 at 11:30 am | Permalink
hmm… a very devoted person.
from each his or her views, i do not have much good perspective on CHC so far from many angles but maybe take a step back and look at the whole organization structure, concept and the direction. sorry to say, i feel that it is too commercialized. basically, it is the $$$$ that move the people and the organization. this is like macdonalds who build up a generation of kids to adults who eat happy meals for themselves and pass on to their kids and say that macdonalds is the best food in the world even it is proved that macdonalds kills you and make them fat. like grooming them to be this way. btw, flash and bang are more of show techniques to use to attract. the first religious group to use this is from the dark side which is later adopt by mega churches in the US.
my apologies if i have offended in any way
iantimothy | 12-Aug-08 at 11:34 am | Permalink
I wouldn’t say I am a very devoted person. I don’t go there anymore. But to put that into perspective, I don’t go to any church anymore.
Don’t worry about offending. You are entitled to your opinion that it is too commercialized and in a way, I can appreciate that position. There are times I feel that way too.
However, I would caution against being totally dismissive about what churches like CHC do. I’ve been to a few other churches, in fact, I grew up in a traditional church, and I can say with great certainty, a church like CHC has its merits.
Isaiah | 12-Aug-08 at 6:11 pm | Permalink
You got it the other way around, Ian. These Biblical principles are what shaped the case. If the Bible said it was okay to all speak in tongues and have loud music to sway the crowd, we’d even support that and think the ‘traditional’ hymns unBiblical.
The Bible is the final authority (Sola Scriptura).
So you’re warning people that even if we go by Biblical teachings that are right, people should still be mindful? What should their yardstick be then? Their own feelings, likes and dislikes?
I’ve never said that they have a monopoly on false converts, but their method of evangelism tends to create false converts. Conversely, I bemoan the fact that Biblical churches are not out there evangelizing as they should, while CHC is much better at this aspect.
While there might be those who are true Christians in the Biblical sense among the huge congregation, my point is that even with Bible studies and so on, it’s still possible for one to be a false convert and the chances of this happening are much higher when the Gospel is not presented.
Having been a false convert myself (but not as a result of attending CHC for I ‘became’ a Christian in the 80s), meeting quite a number of CHC youths and talking to them about their faith, I believe my concerns are merited.
iantimothy | 12-Aug-08 at 6:28 pm | Permalink
There are many cases to be made. I don’t take offense with all the cases you make. More specifically the one case I’m against which is constantly made when criticizing CHC is that it is wrong to talk about health, wealth and prosperity. It is also wrong to say that CHC only talks about that without care about the other stuff which grounds the Christian faith.
The Bible doesn’t say everything. Some things that are said are also open to interpretation.
I say be mindful of the interpretation. And that my friend cuts both ways. When listening to a sermon at CHC, one should also be mindful.
About the false converts, I’ll leave that to another post when I finally get down to it. While I agree with you that there is the tendency for the CHC way of evangelizing to get false converts, I would be wary to say it is the way with the highest tendency. If you ask me, from my experience, every way of evangelizing has equal tendency to create false converts.
There is a reason for that and I’ll try to write about it soon.
You are right to say the chance of having a false convert is higher when the Gospel is not presented. However, I’m saying in CHC, the Gospel is indeed presented. It may not be presented the way you like it or in its entirety during a service.
And to be honest, it isn’t just CHC youths who have a problem. It is Christian youths in general.
Isaiah | 12-Aug-08 at 7:06 pm | Permalink
On all matters on salvation and faith, the Bible does say everything. Might I ask which ones are open to interpretation?
I beg to differ, Ian. I have never heard the Gospel presented from the sermons that I have been able to catch. The Gospel is either presented or it’s not, you can’t present it partially. It’s not a matter of how I like the Gospel to be presented, the matter at hand is that it is not presented at all from what I’ve seen and heard.
I look forward to reading your post on that issue.
Douglas K. Adu-Boahe | 12-Aug-08 at 8:09 pm | Permalink
I have to say that your response to Isaiah’s article is a little credulous in my opinion. Surely if the Gospel is being preached, then we would hear it from the pulpit to the pews. I think of the church of which I am a member: the Gospel is preached from the pulpit all the way down to the members.
Kong Hee, from all his sermons I have watched on TV here in London, has one thing of his world: MAN. God is there to improve peoples’ lives here and now, according to Kong Hee. Actually the Gospel is not a message to make you happier, wealthier or healthier. I would suggest you actually read Isaiah’s article before launching a tirade against it…
iantimothy | 12-Aug-08 at 8:28 pm | Permalink
This is a tirade? Getting sensitive aren’t we?
Anyway, we must have been going for different services, because, like I have always said, when I went to CHC, there was a good deal of coverage on the Gospel, sin and repentance.
However, I make the provision that things might have changed over the last couple of years since the last time I attended any sort of church service was about three years ago.
I wonder if any of you are willing to make the provision that you are watching CHC with a notion of what the ’style’ and ‘format’ of a church service should be like and are going in only to spot mistakes and thus are blinded to what people like me have seen.
Obviously the Gospel message is not the message about making you happier, wealthier and healthier.
But the Gospel isn’t the only message. It is central to the Christian life. It is probably the most fundamental building block for the Christian life. I do not think it is the only one.
But I guess we differ on that.
Anyway, I never mentioned the Gospel isn’t preached from the pulpit in CHC. However, if you must know, it was.
However, like I said, things could have changed over the last three years.
Douglas K. Adu-Boahe | 12-Aug-08 at 9:35 pm | Permalink
I’m not bothered what goes in Singapore, seeing as I am a Londoner anyway, so sensitivity goes out the window.
Things may have been different a few years ago, but somehow I think that the Gospel is a second-rate issue at CHC. There are numerous things which point me to such a conclusion - things which I will drudge out of the past.
You say,
Biblically there is only one message we are commanded to preach - and that is the Gospel (Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15). If there are other messages being preached at CHC, then something is seriously wrong out there.
The stylistics of a church service do not bother me in the slightest - it is the reverence for God and content of preaching that will determine whether a church is a good one or not. Content and reverence first, style and feel second IMHO…
Douglas K. Adu-Boahe | 12-Aug-08 at 10:12 pm | Permalink
correction: will not drugde out of the past…
Isaiah | 13-Aug-08 at 1:18 am | Permalink
Not at all. I watch it sometimes to hopefully catch a glimpse of hope that the church is going back to Biblical teachings.
In fact, a few weeks ago I caught one by Tan Ye Peng which I thought was quite good. I disagreed with some points he made, but overall I thought he preached a more Biblical message than the senior pastor/founder of CHC. To be honest, I was quite happy that a pastor is finally actually preaching pretty good messages.
We don’t wish the worst for CHC, but have genuine concern for the youth attending the church that they are fed with real meat.
Dhope | 13-Aug-08 at 2:15 am | Permalink
Religion has never been worth arguing about. Religion is basically blind faith, simply because you believe in something that you cannot see, much less touch. Based on that, it becomes a personal opinion/belief which strengthens itself for the worshipper’s consumption.
Keywords : personal, blind, faith.
I am not saying dun believe. I am saying, it’s personal, it’s blind faith. You can’t convince a believer/non-believer elsewise.
So dudes and dudettes, dun bother fighting. It’s not worth it, and nothing gets done anyway. Cheers and God Bless.
The Singapore Daily » Blog Archive » Daily SG: 13 Aug 2008 | 13-Aug-08 at 11:12 am | Permalink
[...] Life, the universe and everything - Ian On The Red Dot: City Harvest Church Gets Whacked Again! I Call Bullshit [...]
pilgrim | 13-Aug-08 at 3:41 pm | Permalink
if you stripped everything to the bones, most religions, especially mainstream ones, are structurally the same as non religious bodies or organizations. that structure is basically a business model(mammon) just like how this country is being run.
jesus didn’t come and set up a pyramid scheme of ‘good doers’. he didn’t come to empower a minority of elites or leaders( OR LEADER ) over the rests. he even rejected the earthly crown they tried to put on him to prove a point.
in fact, he came to undo the ‘temple of man’. this temple is found in all religious institutions.
radical you say?
there is a serious dearth of hearing in the people otherwise, the world wld not be what it is today and the book of revelation will not have any relevance either.
most proponent of the modern interpretation of the faith are not completely off( especially in regards to the moral aspect) but therein lies the lethal mixture of ‘good and evil’ that leads to ‘death’. an adulterous concoction which we all have been warned but seems to be deaf to.
the second death( mentioned in the NT) abides in those who enjoined themselves in ‘the temple of man’.
what is the first death then?
Joe | 13-Aug-08 at 9:33 pm | Permalink
You know, if they knew what the mother( harlot - the graduation of eve) of all sin was, these false prophets will have to get real jobs like..be a tent maker or something … instead of living off their followers.
The irony ( and joke ) is that these religious teachers have committed the greatest no no in the book without their knowing.
But then, to preach the mother of all sin is to lose one’s job and … fat paycheck
Now how can that be?
skndr | 13-Aug-08 at 11:56 pm | Permalink
I feel I have to clarify a certain things for non-christians out there who happen to read this article.
Referring to the reply from iantimothy #4, 2nd paragraph: Some things that are said are also open to interpretation.
This, of course, does not give you “permission” to interpret God’s laws.
One of his law is: “Neither the homosexual offenders … will inherit the kingdom of God” (NIV, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). There is no other interpretation possible.
As for other “unspoken” case, my advise is that you don’t take bible based on one verse alone and try to interpret it to your imagination, but you should understand the whole bible before making judgment.
chin | 15-Aug-08 at 5:11 pm | Permalink
“The earliest converts (to Christianity) were converted by a single historical fact (the Resurrection) and a single theological doctrine (the Redemption)….The ‘Gospels’ came later and were written not to make Christians but to edify Christians already made.” The Screwtape Letters, C. S. Lewis.
Naturally, ‘churches’ came even later.
I would look very carefully at the history and tradition of any church worth joining and am wary of churches (esp. modern, man founded ones) that make too much of the ‘quality’ or ‘type’ of the leadership it provides. To paraphrase St. Paul, it doesn’t really mean anything to say “I am for Paul” or “I am for Peter”, what really matters to a Christian, is that “I am for Jesus Christ”.
Just as good and bad people are not defined by geography, any church will have a mix of good and bad members. But just as a good start is important, and how that church started is also important. Because interpretation of scripture is inevitably coloured by the attitude of the interpreters.
The Singapore Daily » Blog Archive » Weekly Roundup: Week 33 | 16-Aug-08 at 11:40 am | Permalink
[...] to make Singapore baby friendly - Hear Ye! Hear Ye!: The price of growing up - Ian On The Red Dot: City Harvest Church Gets Whacked Again! I Call Bullshit - Babywail’s Shelter: To Hell and Back.. - The Extra Scoop: Saying goodbye to [...]
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psyche | 12-Oct-08 at 2:00 pm | Permalink
The devil incarnate benny hinn is coming to city harvest on the weekend of november 22nd. This is an article recently dated 22 July 2008. IMHO, he should be in jail and locked up for the rest of his life.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/2180…-blessing-scam
Many so-called ‘Christian’ preachers go to great lengths to separate their followers from their money.
The latest reported ‘prosperity’ scam was reportedly committed by Todd Koontz, a guest speaker at the recent Benny Hinn “Miracle Crusade” in South Africa.
Apparently, in exchange for a gift of $1,000, 500 believers would receive an “exceptional blessing”. According to Koontz the blessing would be “poured out for only two minutes.”
‘God bless your credit card’
Johannesburg - God’s blessing would last only two minutes and it would create 500 churchgoing millionaires or even billionaires - all they had to do was use their credit cards to pay $1 000 in offerings to televangelist Benny Hinn.
Pastor Tommie Ferreira of the AGS Church in Johannesburg was so upset about the “blessing” that, after a week, he wanted to know who of the donors actually had become millionaires.
Ferreira told Rapport he did not mean to bring about Hinn’s downfall.
He merely wanted to know if any of the hundreds of churchgoers who donated amounts of up to $1 000 (about R7 500) to Hinn’s Miracle Crusade last week Saturday had now become millionaires.
About 18 000 people streamed to the Coca-Cola Dome in Randburg to hear Hinn’s message of healing and miracles.
Ferreira, who is a keen choir singer, voluntarily sang in the Miracle Crusade’s choir. He said one of Hinn’s American guest speakers, Pastor Todd Koontz, spoke about financial burdens and said 500 audience members would receive “an exceptional blessing”.
“He said the service would yield millionaires and billionaires within 24 hours.
“Everyone had to donate $1 000 because an exceptional blessing rested on $1 000.”
Koontz apparently really had the congregation scrambling when he said, “This blessing will be poured out for only two minutes.”
Ferreira said: “People stormed to the front - poor people, rich people, people from all sections of our society.”
Hinn’s co-pastors apparently had credit-card machines ready with which they could take donations.
“He (Koontz) said God would bless the people’s credit cards and they would be able to rule over South Africa with their money. Eventually there were no fewer than 1 000 people who made such donations.”
According to Ferreira’s calculations, Hinn must have collected millions of rands with these donations - perhaps more than R7m if each of the 1 000 church-goers donated $1 000 in the hope of becoming millionaires.
Furthermore, after Koontz’s collection of the $1 000 donations, Hinn collected general donations.
Dr Sarel Smit of the AGS church Lofstad in Hursthill, Johannesburg, who supported Ferreira as he spoke to Rapport, was equally worried about the method by which Hinn collected donations.
“Especially at a time like this when there is dire need, people run the risk of losing their faith in the Lord in this way. God will provide for your needs, but not your greed.”
Rapport spoke to an employee in Hinn’s South African office in Durban who said on Friday morning that they were still busy collecting money.
[..]
Thy Word is Truth | 23-Dec-08 at 5:00 pm | Permalink
Sadly Kong Hee and City Harvest Church, despite glaring evidences, continues to endorse, support and associate with Benny Hinn including an invitation to Benny Hinn as main speaker during CHC’s Asia Conference in November 2008.
Why does Kong Hee and CHC continues to let their young people be seduced by poison from a false teacher of unbiblical and heretical teachings ?
“Birds of a feather flock together”? Benny is heretical and un-biblical in his teachings…….
Benny Hinn said “When you were born again the Word was made flesh in you. And you became flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. Don’t tell me you have Jesus. You are everything He was and everything He is and ever He shall be. . . . It [the new man] says, ‘I am as He is.’ That’s what it says. As He is, so are we in this world. Jesus said, ‘Go in my name, go in my stead.’ Don’t say, ‘I have.’ Say, ‘I am, I am, I am, I am, I am.’ That’s why you never ever, ever, ever ought to say. ‘I’m sick.’ How can you be sick if you’re the new creation? Say, ‘I’m healed!’ Don’t say, ‘I’m a sinner.’ The new creature is no sinner. I’m the righteousness of God in Christ.” (Benny Hinn, “Our Position in Christ #2–The Word Made Flesh” [Orlando, FL: Orlando Christian Center, 1991], audiotape #A031190-2, side 2)
Check these …………….
BENNY HINN SAYS:
God has 9 parts (tri-theistic).
• A. God has a body, soul and spirit.
• B. Jesus has a body, soul and spirit.
• C. Holy Spirit has a body, soul and spirit.
(Benny Hinn broadcast, recorded 10/13/90)
Christians are little messiahs.
Christians are little gods.
(Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded November 1990)
(Our position in Christ, Tape #AO31190-1)
Jesus at His death became one with Satan.
(Benny Hinn broadcast, recorded 12/15/90)
Poverty comes from Hell.
Prosperity comes from Heaven.
Adam had complete dominion over the earth and all it contains.
• A. Adam could fly like a bird.
• B. Adam could swim underwater and breathe like a fish.
Adam went to the moon.
Adam walked on water.
Adam was a super being, He was the first superman that lived.
Adam had dominion over the sun, moon & stars.
Christians do not have Christ in their hearts.
Sow a big seed, when you confess it, you are activating the supernatural forces of God.
(Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded November 1990)
When you don’t give money, it shows that you have the devil’s nature.
(Praise-a-thon (TBN), recorded 4/21/91)
Wants to use Holy Ghost machine gun to kill Heresy Hunters.
(Praise-a-thon (TBN), 11/8/90)
“Jesus became one in nature with Satan”
Benny Hinn: “Jesus Christ knew the only way He would stop Satan is by
becoming one in nature with him…He became one with the nature of Satan, so
all those who had the nature of Satan can partake of the nature of God.”
“Benny Hinn” program on TBN [15 December 1990, emphasis in original]. This
message, titled “The Person of Jesus” [delivered during Orlando Christian
Center's Sunday morning service on 2 December 1991], comprises Part Four of
Hinn’s six-part series on “The Revelation of Jesus” [Orlando Christian
Center, 1991], videotape #TV-292
Benny Hinn: “When you say, ‘I am a Christian, you are saying, ‘I am
mashiach’ in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other
words That is a shocking revelation…. May I say it like this? You are a
little god on earth running around.” “Praise-a-Thon” program on TBN [6
November 1990]
“Adam was a superman and the first man on the moon”
Benny Hinn: “Adam was a super-being when God created him. I don’t know
whether people know this, but he was the first superman that really ever
lived. First of all, the Scriptures declare clearly that he had dominion
over the fowls of the air, the fish of the sea–which means he used to fly.
Of course, how can he have dominion over the birds and not be able to do
what they do? The word ‘dominion’ in the Hebrew clearly declares that if you
have dominion over a subject, that you do everything that subject does. In
other words, that subject, if it does something you cannot do, you don’t
have dominion over it. I’ll prove it further. Adam not only flew, he flew to
space. He was–with one thought he would be on the moon.”
“Praise the Lord” program on TBN [26 December 1991]
“Jesus had no existence prior to being in the flesh”
Benny Hinn: “The Bible says the prophets spoke the Word not knowing what
they were saying. But 4000 years passed when the Word became a human being
and walked and talked and moved. The spoken Word became a human being. The
spoken Word became flesh. The spoken Word got legs on, arms, eyes, hair, a
body. And He was no longer saying, ‘Thus sayeth the Lord.’ He was saying, ‘I
say unto you.’ The Word that was spoken through the lip [sic] of prophets
was now walking on the seashore of Galilee
“Benny Hinn” program on TBN [15 December 1990, emphasis in original]. This
message, titled “The Person of Jesus” [delivered during Orlando Christian
Center's Sunday morning service on 2 December 1991], comprises Part Four of
Hinn’s six-part series on “The Revelation of Jesus” [Orlando Christian
Center, 1991], videotape #TV-292
E | 29-Dec-08 at 10:41 pm | Permalink
hallo ian,
I’ve read a few of your blog posts regarding CHC. And I must say and can see that you’ve put in a lot of thoughts and efforts in those posts. However what puzzled me is,why did you left CHC or turn away from Christianity as it is apparent from your post that you still have strong feelings for CHC?
iantimothy | 30-Dec-08 at 2:13 am | Permalink
hey E, whatever my feelings for CHC, I feel quite strongly against Christianity, or rather, I have issues with God, and thus, I turned away.
John | 01-Jan-09 at 2:05 am | Permalink
Hey.Dont Call our church BullShit..EVIL.Stop saying all this things without proof!I’m a christian.Dont say bad things..
Jes | 11-Feb-09 at 5:40 am | Permalink
Wow, it was real shocking to find out so much about CHC…
My sister is attending this church.
Her leader really sucks to the core!
Sometimes I guess it’s not the church’s fault!
Perhaps their congregation is too big so somehow any Tom, Dick & Harry could just easily slip in. As a result, it cause heavy “corruption”.
For example, her leader by the name of STEPHANIE SEAH SULING” she is overly controlling my sister in everything she does. Even when that so called leader is at fault, she does not admit. That leader always think that she is right in everything. Sometimes that leader even call her names & put her down in front of others. My poor sister took in every bit of sufferings. I told her many times to change a cell group or even the church but she refuses. She said if she did, her leader will curse her. On one occassion, the leader told her to break off with her boyfriend because the leader said that she is more worthy to be his girlfriend than my sister. How could she said that?! That evil leader is causing my sister a nervous breakdown.
Natalie | 14-Mar-09 at 2:23 am | Permalink
well, the Pharisees are good at fasting, praying, and learning about the Bible. They know the commandment very well, but ….they are the one condemned by Jesus! I think it’s important to bring awareness to the public what CHC is up to, there is just too many controversies around this church, and it’s just not right!
you can’t say you are a Christian leader and you get to do whatever you want. from a nonChristian’s eyes, CHC isn’t setting a good model!
iantimothy | 14-Mar-09 at 11:54 am | Permalink
@natalie - fair pt about the Pharisees. But who are we to say are the real ones?