I’ve been thinking a lot about the prosperity gospel since reading Sicarii’s post. I’m going to share what I understand about it as learned from City Harvest Church and what I believe. As usual the standard disclaimer - I am what is commonly termed a backslider so please read this with, you know, a whole lot of salt.
Before that, let me share two points that Sicarii has problems with.
1.
Sicarii faults the teaching of ‘the more you sow in terms of giving to the church or to a teacher’s ministry, you’ll be blessed back 40x, 60x or even 100x of what you sowed.’ He feels that such teaching is sending the message that God’s blessings can be bought.
2.
He also gives two examples of testimonies that he has problems with:
A: “I gave more to the building fund last year, this year I had 20-fold increase in my salary!”
B: “I gave my last $500 on me, today I have a net worth of US$2 million!”
Point 1: The more you sow in terms of giving, the more you will receive.
Firstly, God’s blessings cannot be bought. Whatever we receive, we receive because God chose to give to us.
To understand Point 1, let me establish somethings I believe in and I think are relevant when discussing Point 1.
1. God uses us to bring blessings to this world.
2. God gives us as much as he thinks we can handle.
3. God does not want us to give more than we can in terms of actual amounts we can afford to give and that which our faith can sustain.
People working full time in church or doing any of God’s ministries have needs (and even wants) to be met. When we say that God will take care of them, what we mean is that God will use the other brothers and sisters of the church who are not doing full time work (i.e. working and drawing a salary) to provide for them.
When we say that God will take care of the poor, we are not saying that bread will miraculously drop from the sky, but that these poor will be taken care of by the various ministries which are financed by the brothers and sisters who have the means.
I believe that the people who are better conduits will be given more.
Now, when a church leader asks us to give more and we will be blessed, they are not telling us to invest and get returns. What they are in fact saying is that the giving shows your willingness to be a (better) conduit and God will then give you more than what you have given so that you can have more to not only take care of your own needs but to give more to the church, ministries and other good works.
Now, giving more doesn’t mean you keep increasing the amounts you give. What it means is giving more than what you were prepared to give such that what you give is aligned to what your heart is telling you to give.
Let me give you a personal example. When I used to go to City Harvest Church, there were times when I struggled with how much I should give during offering. Give everything in the wallet? Give the biggest note? Give the usual amount?
Then I realized I never really prayed about the amount. I was trying to make a purely logical decision.
There were times when I gave only $10 and I was at peace with that. There were times I gave $50 and felt maybe I wasn’t giving as much as I should.
I believe God puts the amount we should give in our heart.
Out of fear, we don’t give that amount. Fear that we might need the money for other things. Fear that after giving we might not have enough.
The thing is, we shouldn’t give out of fear. But neither should we not give out of fear.
When the church leader says that if we give (sow), God will bless us more in return, my understanding is that the church leader is telling us not to be afraid of sowing more than what we were logically prepared to give but give as much as the Holy Spirit has convicted in our hearts to give and we will be blessed. The closer we are to the amount the Holy Spirit convicted in us, in a way, is a measure of our faith and willingness to give and God honours that.
To be fair, just going by Sicarii’s example of what the church leaders say when it comes to offering does make it seem like they are just selling an investment plan with really good returns but it needs to be understood that the prosperity gospel is learned not just from sermons or during service. It is the starting point. A lot of what I understand to be the prosperity gospel was learned from cell group meetings and one-to-one talks with my cell group leader.
Point 2: Emphasizing how much we have received.
I understand that it might seem crass when people go up and give testimonies about how much God has blessed them. Firstly, the testimonies given in City Harvest Church isn’t just about financial blessings. If anyone claims it is, they are being dishonest. I have heard testimonies about how God has mended relationships, healed people and just do all kinds of other goodness. Now, if you want to argue that the majority of testimonies are about financial blessings, I can’t defend the church because I don’t have proof it is not so. I wasn’t counting. I was busy celebrating every testimony.
Now to address Sicarii faulting the testimonies about financial blessings. I’m not really sure if he is faulting testimonies of financial blessing per se or that the amount used are too large for his liking. I would presume it is the latter because he himself have shared about financial blessings.
Why do people talk about the 20-fold increase in salary and their net worth of two million?
Pause.
Actually, such ridiculous large amounts aren’t always thrown around. I would even question if it’s the norm at CHC. The testimonies I heard about financial blessings are usually more modest.
Unpause.
There might be a reason why the blessings that are shared are rather substantial in nature. It is to leave no doubt that only God could have provided it.
Say I give a testimony about how I didn’t have enough money to pay for my medical bills and then out of nowhere my company decided to give me an increment. Now compare that to a testimony where I say I didn’t have enough for my medical bills and out of nowhere, I got job-hunted and was offered 5 times my current salary.
Which is more likely to be from God? Actually both.
But the thing is, which leaves less doubt in a human’s mind that it could only be from God?
Now, I understand Sicarii’s concern that throwing such substantial financial blessings in the open might only attract people who want to get rich and not focus on the more important things about God.
But sharing these testimonies isn’t about telling me that God can make me rich. It is in fact sharing with me how God’s power and blessings have no limit.
Now, Sicarii talks about Jesus Christ’s teaching to lay up treasures in heaven instead of on earth. I agree with that. We shouldn’t hoard what we have on earth. We should give as much as we can on earth to help other people. The prosperity message again does not conflict with Jesus Christ’s teachings because it isn’t just about how much we can receive from God and then hoard it but about how much we can receive from God and then pass it on.
To end, I just want to say that the prosperity gospel doesn’t exist in isolation. It has to be part of a bigger framework in our relationship with God and our understanding of that relationship.
And that is indeed the place the prosperity gospel exists in CHC (or at least when I was there).
Sicarii | 09-Jan-08 at 2:19 pm | Permalink
Ian:
First, you need to understand that perhaps not many think the way you think, and that many take the messages at face value.
And that’s the problem I have with the prosperity gospel.
Yes, God will always give us everything good, but is it always in financial terms? Definitely not.
In fact, sometimes God even breaks our spirit so that we are made to sink to very low points and submit to His will. Sometimes, God also makes us go through trials to only emerge victorious later, or to learn a lesson in serving Him.
The prosperity gospel paints a rosy picture that once you become a Christian, these promises of good will come. Not so, not so at all.
What happens when the winds blow and the rain beats down? The prosperity gospel is shifting sands upon which one’s faith is built then! There’ll be those who shall turn away because they’ll be wondering where their blessings are when they have given so much to the church.
Do you seriously think that many young impressionable people think what you think about the limitless possibilities of God’s miracles when they hear those messages? Sadly, I think not.
The prosperity gospel doesn’t teach repentance, hating of sin or the living of a true Christian life. It’s tailored for the “me” and “me now!” generations that we have today. In other words, give to receive.
One last point: you don’t have to be rich to give, nor do you have to make more in order to give more. That’s wrong teaching. You give what you can and not think about receiving anything in return. That’s what being a true Christian is, and what being a true disciple is.
Shalom.
iantimothy | 09-Jan-08 at 2:37 pm | Permalink
I understand your points. The thing is the prosperity gospel isn’t bad. Only focusing on it is. And I don’t think CHC just focuses on it. You need a lot of things to grow as a Christian and CHC takes care to ensure such stuff is provided.
What stuff?
1. Structured bible studies.
2. Cell groups.
3. Church-wide bible study services.
4. Fellowship with fellow brothers and sisters.
5. Counseling with cell group leaders.
6. Plus many others.
The prosperity gospel message doesn’t teach repentance, hating of sin and the living of a true Christian life because that isn’t its purpose.
Like I said about, it exists part of a larger framework and the other parts are responsible for those messages which you have highlighted and are indeed important.
I agree you don’t have to be rich to give and you don’t need to have more to give more. But imagine if you have a larger pool of resources to give from. Isn’t that better? Of course the attaining of that larger pool shouldn’t compromise your relationship with God and in fact the prosperity gospel is about how you can increase that pool with God.
The thing is, you should always start by giving your best in whatever capacity. But your best can always improve. No?
I also agree one should give without demanding anything in return, but that doesn’t mean you don’t expect.
When I pray or rather when I used to pray, I never demanded God answered my prayers. But I expected him to with the mindset that the expectation is not based on some right I think I deserved to have, but the acknowledgment that it was a privilege he had the power to give.
When a person gives, there are many things he can be thinking. I understand some people give only thinking about what is the upside for him. But giving and thinking about receiving something in return isn’t really wrong if the ‘thinking about receiving something in return’ is about thinking about how God can and will refill the pool of resources so that we can give again.
Sicarii | 09-Jan-08 at 3:28 pm | Permalink
I’m going to disagree with you and say that it is not part of the framework, nor should it be.
Jesus Christ taught nothing of the sort, nor did any of the apostles and disciples in their epistles. Not Paul, nor John, nor James, nor Peter, nor Timothy.
The entire teaching of the Bible is centered on one: Jesus Christ. The Apostles and disciples taught on living lives centered on Christ Jesus, perfecting our walk in Him, that this life is to work out our salvation with fear (of God) and trembling.
It is man who is preaching either a false or distorted gospel. The prosperity gospel is teaching idolatry, for whoever covets practises idolatry. The prosperity gospel elevates gifts above Giver, whereas God should be and is always first and above all.
Shalom.
Sicarii | 09-Jan-08 at 3:47 pm | Permalink
I’ll like to leave these verses for anyone who comes to read your post to think on.
Philippians 3:17-21 ESV:
“Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.”
Habakkuk 3:17-19 ESV:
“Though the fig tree should not blossom,
nor fruit be on the vines,
the produce of the olive fail
and the fields yield no food,
the flock be cut off from the fold
and there be no herd in the stalls,
yet I will rejoice in the Lord;
I will take joy in the God of my salvation.
God, the Lord, is my strength;
he makes my feet like the deer’s;
he makes me tread on my high places.”
Shalom.
iantimothy | 09-Jan-08 at 3:50 pm | Permalink
Well, I guess it is pretty obvious I disagree with you too.
Wanting to be prosperous does not mean you are coveting nor does it mean you are practicing idolatry.
Centering our lives on Jesus Christ, perfecting our walk in him, does not mean we cannot desire prosperity and use that prosperity for his glory.
Just want to say that some things are not mutually exclusive and some things are not mutually inclusive.
And I’ll stop here.
iantimothy | 09-Jan-08 at 4:16 pm | Permalink
Oh. Just saw the verses you left. You do realize of course you are selectively quoting parts of the Bible without considering that there are other verses that might tell a different message?
Like for example.
Genesis 39:2 =>
“The LORD was with Joseph and he prospered, and he lived in the house of his Egyptian master.”
My goodness, God actually made Joseph prosperous, in the house of an idol worshiping master.
Note prosper here doesn’t mean rich but means Joseph found success in everything he did where making money for his master was probably one of those things.
Why? Maybe because God realized that Joseph could only rise to a position where he could make a difference for his people by being prosperous.
Which if you read the story of Joseph was what happened. Imagined if Joseph just, I don’t know, made mediocre sums of money if not lose them for his master. The fields did not produce as much but normal cos they were just well maintained.
Would Joseph have been able to rise to a position where because of his influence Egypt stored enough grain which was eventually useful to God’s chosen people if he hadn’t been able to find success in earthly matters?
You see. If it is in God’s plans for us, prosperity isn’t a no no. Paying attention to earthly things doesn’t equal to obsessed and minds set (only) on earthly things.
Your second verse is exactly the balance to the prosperity message which is also taught. Wanting, hoping and working towards prosperity isn’t wrong. It isn’t even wrong to ask for God’s help to be prosperous.
But if the shit hits the fan, and we aren’t prosperous, we don’t blame God. What we do recognize is that it wasn’t part of God’s plan for us for the moment and we are thankful to him because ultimately salvation is the most important thing.
Like I said, expecting something isn’t demanding.
And like I said in my first paragraph, I also chose a verse that tells a different message about prosperity.
If prosperity is the end. NO NO.
If prosperity is a means to an end which is to glorify God, then maybe YES?
Of course being humans, there is also the other inconvenient notion that people might not be able to handle wealth and although they started out with the attention to use their wealth to honour God, they eventually turned away from God in the pursuit of that wealth or after having gotten it.
The hammer isn’t bad just because you hit your finger while hammering the nail.
Sicarii | 09-Jan-08 at 5:33 pm | Permalink
You are confusing being blessed with wealth for a purpose with the prosperity gospel, Ian.
In your zeal to tell me how I am selectively misquoting, and how Joseph is blessed, you forget to mention that he first was sold to the Egyptians by his brothers and he went through a bad period before being elevated by the Pharaoh so that his family could be preserved during the famine.
Examine first if Joseph was still faithful despite his difficult circumstances, Ian. The preservation of him and his family also served God’s will, for the 12 tribes of Israel came through the 12 sons of Jacob, and Christ Jesus from the tribe of Judah.
The prosperity gospel is this: that people are promised riches and wealth and well-being just because they believe in God!
I do not deny that some will be blessed with wealth, just because God sees their hearts, and know that they will serve Him with what they shall receive. Neither am I saying that Christians must be poor as church mice.
But to preach again and again that just because they are Christians, and that when they give, they shall receive many times blessings of what they have given is plain wrong.
This deflates the gospel into some kind of lottery system — buy more tickets, chances of winning 4D or Toto is higher. Same thing here: give more, in the end God shall prosper you financially many times over!
As like those who gave testimonies, I gave so much dollars, or my last $500, to Arise and Build in the past years, today my net worth is US$2 million. Now, you tell me, what’s the difference between that and the lottery system?
Shalom.
iantimothy | 09-Jan-08 at 6:08 pm | Permalink
Firstly, I think I said ’selectively quoting’, not ’selectively misquoting’, if there is any difference.
Secondly, I’m laughing over here. Not to make light of our discussion, but I think I finally see where our differences lie. I made the noob mistake of not seeing that the phrase ‘prosperity gospel’ has different meaning to both of us.
You constraint it to just ‘that people are promised riches (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) and wealth (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) and well-being (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) AUTOMATICALLY just because they believe in God!’ and they are taught nothing else.
You constraint it to just ‘preach again and again that just because they are Christians, and that when they give, they shall receive many times blessings (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) of what they have given AUTOMATICALLY‘.
I on the other hand have always understood (or assumed) that the prosperity gospel referred to all those you said above (minus the bold words of course) BUT that it would not be a something that just happens easily without trials, tribulations and it most definitely would not happen independent of our faith being testing, stretched and strengthened plus it is not a confirm chopped stamped signed and sealed given during our time on this world.
iantimothy | 09-Jan-08 at 6:30 pm | Permalink
Oh… From my personal experience of two full years (plus on and off after that) going for all their bible studies, sermons, services, cell groups …, they most definitely do not preach the prosperity gospel which you are talking about.
Never was I under any pretension that prosperity was an automatic right just based on my belief in God or that it was linearly (or what ever mathematical formula you can throw) tied to how much I gave.
Sicarii | 09-Jan-08 at 6:43 pm | Permalink
Good, at least that misunderstanding is cleared up. As human beings, we naturally want good lives, have more than enough and live rich.
But that’s not the message of the Gospel. The message of the Gospel is eternal through our Lord Jesus Christ. For me, I can’t care less if I am rich in this life or will become prosperous (save for a middle-aged tummy that’s growing).
What I care about is my eternal state, i.e. will I be with Christ Jesus or banished into the darkness where there’s crying and gnashing of teeth.
You seem like a matured person who understands what a Christian life entails, which is good.
Just out of curiosity, why did you leave the faith?
Shalom.
iantimothy | 09-Jan-08 at 10:22 pm | Permalink
Yup. The misunderstanding should be cleared up. So I hope you feel less strongly against CHC’s prosperity gospel because it really isn’t of the variant you described.
Sicarii | 09-Jan-08 at 10:37 pm | Permalink
I was referring to the definitions of the prosperity gospel. It doesn’t do anything about what I feel are wrong teachings from the pulpit there.
Shalom.
J Warren | 23-Mar-08 at 11:29 pm | Permalink
It has been exhilarating to read the views and comments by you and Siarii.
It has also been great to see two intellectuals arguing out their cases in an urbane manner.
Both of you have expressed some valid truths in the process of arguing your positions.
I take advantage of the opportunity to express the following point which I have never had the opportunity to express in a forum such as this: That when selling the idea of giving cash in return for 30, 60 or 100 fold financial blessings, one must not do so in isolation, that is, emphasing such blessings without also making it manifestly clear that blessings come in different forms to all who are faithful to God in every way.
The church must be sensitive when it ‘pushes’ this idea, bearing in mind that for every individual who gives and is rewarded with a 20-fold increase in salary, there must be hundreds out there in the congregation who did not profit from any financial miracles.
How are these members to explain to themselves why their giving has not yielded the kind of results like those who went up to the rostrum to give their testimonies.
Will questions and thoughts such as, “Have I sinned?” or “God does not love me like He loves others! I’m born insignificant”, come to disturb them?
The church needs to be sensitive in this area or else people will become confused or hurt.
iantimothy | 24-Mar-08 at 9:45 am | Permalink
Hello Warren, thanks for sharing. Your comment pretty much sums up the discussion nicely.
shoestring | 04-Apr-08 at 12:00 am | Permalink
I have a problem with the prosperity gospel because it focuses too much on the amount (to be) given. God wants us to give with a cheerful heart. Period.
He did not promise that if we give $X amount, we will receive $Y amount. He will bless us according to our attitude and His will, and the blessings might not be in the form of $ amounts or immediate.
To me, that is the reason why people are so vexed about how much to give. Just give. Don’t worry about the amount. Worry about the motive instead. Because that is what God is interested in.
A church might be very rich because the congregation has given much. But it will not please God, if the motive is not right.