He did not promise that if we give $X amount, we will receive $Y amount. He will bless us according to our attitude and His will, and the blessings might not be in the form of $ amounts or immediate.

To me, that is the reason why people are so vexed about how much to give. Just give. Don’t worry about the amount. Worry about the motive instead. Because that is what God is interested in.

A church might be very rich because the congregation has given much. But it will not please God, if the motive is not right.

It has also been great to see two intellectuals arguing out their cases in an urbane manner.

Both of you have expressed some valid truths in the process of arguing your positions.

I take advantage of the opportunity to express the following point which I have never had the opportunity to express in a forum such as this: That when selling the idea of giving cash in return for 30, 60 or 100 fold financial blessings, one must not do so in isolation, that is, emphasing such blessings without also making it manifestly clear that blessings come in different forms to all who are faithful to God in every way.

The church must be sensitive when it ‘pushes’ this idea, bearing in mind that for every individual who gives and is rewarded with a 20-fold increase in salary, there must be hundreds out there in the congregation who did not profit from any financial miracles.

How are these members to explain to themselves why their giving has not yielded the kind of results like those who went up to the rostrum to give their testimonies.

Will questions and thoughts such as, “Have I sinned?” or “God does not love me like He loves others! I’m born insignificant”, come to disturb them?

The church needs to be sensitive in this area or else people will become confused or hurt.

Shalom.

But that’s not the message of the Gospel. The message of the Gospel is eternal through our Lord Jesus Christ. For me, I can’t care less if I am rich in this life or will become prosperous (save for a middle-aged tummy that’s growing).

What I care about is my eternal state, i.e. will I be with Christ Jesus or banished into the darkness where there’s crying and gnashing of teeth.

You seem like a matured person who understands what a Christian life entails, which is good.

Just out of curiosity, why did you leave the faith?

Shalom.

Never was I under any pretension that prosperity was an automatic right just based on my belief in God or that it was linearly (or what ever mathematical formula you can throw) tied to how much I gave.

Secondly, I’m laughing over here. Not to make light of our discussion, but I think I finally see where our differences lie. I made the noob mistake of not seeing that the phrase ‘prosperity gospel’ has different meaning to both of us.

You constraint it to just ‘that people are promised riches (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) and wealth (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) and well-being (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) AUTOMATICALLY just because they believe in God!’ and they are taught nothing else.

You constraint it to just ‘preach again and again that just because they are Christians, and that when they give, they shall receive many times blessings (JUST FOR THEMSELVES) of what they have given AUTOMATICALLY‘.

I on the other hand have always understood (or assumed) that the prosperity gospel referred to all those you said above (minus the bold words of course) BUT that it would not be a something that just happens easily without trials, tribulations and it most definitely would not happen independent of our faith being testing, stretched and strengthened plus it is not a confirm chopped stamped signed and sealed given during our time on this world.

In your zeal to tell me how I am selectively misquoting, and how Joseph is blessed, you forget to mention that he first was sold to the Egyptians by his brothers and he went through a bad period before being elevated by the Pharaoh so that his family could be preserved during the famine.

Examine first if Joseph was still faithful despite his difficult circumstances, Ian. The preservation of him and his family also served God’s will, for the 12 tribes of Israel came through the 12 sons of Jacob, and Christ Jesus from the tribe of Judah.

The prosperity gospel is this: that people are promised riches and wealth and well-being just because they believe in God!

I do not deny that some will be blessed with wealth, just because God sees their hearts, and know that they will serve Him with what they shall receive. Neither am I saying that Christians must be poor as church mice.

But to preach again and again that just because they are Christians, and that when they give, they shall receive many times blessings of what they have given is plain wrong.

This deflates the gospel into some kind of lottery system — buy more tickets, chances of winning 4D or Toto is higher. Same thing here: give more, in the end God shall prosper you financially many times over!

As like those who gave testimonies, I gave so much dollars, or my last $500, to Arise and Build in the past years, today my net worth is US$2 million. Now, you tell me, what’s the difference between that and the lottery system?

Shalom.

Like for example.

Genesis 39:2 =>
“The LORD was with Joseph and he prospered, and he lived in the house of his Egyptian master.”

My goodness, God actually made Joseph prosperous, in the house of an idol worshiping master.

Note prosper here doesn’t mean rich but means Joseph found success in everything he did where making money for his master was probably one of those things.

Why? Maybe because God realized that Joseph could only rise to a position where he could make a difference for his people by being prosperous.

Which if you read the story of Joseph was what happened. Imagined if Joseph just, I don’t know, made mediocre sums of money if not lose them for his master. The fields did not produce as much but normal cos they were just well maintained.

Would Joseph have been able to rise to a position where because of his influence Egypt stored enough grain which was eventually useful to God’s chosen people if he hadn’t been able to find success in earthly matters?

You see. If it is in God’s plans for us, prosperity isn’t a no no. Paying attention to earthly things doesn’t equal to obsessed and minds set (only) on earthly things.

Your second verse is exactly the balance to the prosperity message which is also taught. Wanting, hoping and working towards prosperity isn’t wrong. It isn’t even wrong to ask for God’s help to be prosperous.

But if the shit hits the fan, and we aren’t prosperous, we don’t blame God. What we do recognize is that it wasn’t part of God’s plan for us for the moment and we are thankful to him because ultimately salvation is the most important thing.

Like I said, expecting something isn’t demanding.

And like I said in my first paragraph, I also chose a verse that tells a different message about prosperity.

If prosperity is the end. NO NO.
If prosperity is a means to an end which is to glorify God, then maybe YES?

Of course being humans, there is also the other inconvenient notion that people might not be able to handle wealth and although they started out with the attention to use their wealth to honour God, they eventually turned away from God in the pursuit of that wealth or after having gotten it.

The hammer isn’t bad just because you hit your finger while hammering the nail.