Woke up and saw this post on ping.sg. Firstly, I LOVE what this guy wrote. Really. I did. Now, I know why I turned my back on Christianity (as a religion). And of course what this post highlighted also helped.
Firstly, I used to go to CHC. I haven’t gone to church for some time. I haven’t read the Bible for some time. Haven’t really prayed except when some of the people I love want to say grace before a meal or when a friend is in need. So maybe I’m not the most qualified person like the gentleman who blogs here to talk about CHC and the prosperity message that everyone is so hung up about.
But damn if I’m not going to say something to defend CHC.
I love his kungfu. Really. I do. First, he says ‘… sermon was going to be the filth that is the prosperity gospel again as is the norm at City Harvest Church.’ then he says ‘… pray for Kong Hee to wake up from his delusion, repent, and start preaching God’s Word instead of the prosperity gospel.’ and then to show us what a nice guy he is ‘You are putting words into my mouth — I did not in any manner condemn Kong Hee nor judge him or the church that he leads.’
I’m being a bit hypocritical here. I have written in such a way on this blog before but this guy is the master.
What is the meaning of condemn? What is the meaning of repent? If you tell a guy he needs to repent haven’t you already judged him.
Jedi mind tricks. The force is strong in this one.
But how does this have anything to do with defending CHC. Nothing. I was digressing and I apologize.
City Harvest Church does place a strong emphasis on the prosperity message. Is it the only message? No. It isn’t. Is it the message that appears at every sermon? Well, I haven’t done a statistical analysis on the notes I have taken during the time I was a member, but I would be able to agree that it is a message that is kinda always mentioned.
Is that a bad thing?
No really. Is it a bad thing?
There are many ways to say the same thing. The first way is this.
You are a sinner. Of no fault of yours, you were born a sinner and you are condemned to this bloody terrible place called Hell. And since you are a Singaporean used to aircon, you are screwed. Cos Hell is hot. HOT. And if you have blabber problems, whahaha, you are really screwed, cos hell is condemnation with no relief. NO RELIEF. Get it? But don’t worry, cos if you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be saved. You won’t go to hell. You get to go to heaven! Don’t you want heaven? You can get it. But remember only JC can give it to you. Like the brother here said, work towards your salvation with ‘fear and trembling’.
Pause. You do realized that being a Christian just because I don’t really want to go to hell and I fear some big boy in the sky is almost like being a Christian just because I want to be rich.
Same Difference. Both reasons cheapens Christianity and any sort of relationship one could have with God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit.
There is the other way to say it.
Yup, let’s ignore for a moment this whole inconvenient notion that somehow we are all born sinners. Look at your life now. Are you happy with it? Don’t you wish that there was more meaning to your life. More purpose. Don’t you wish to be able to afford the cost in taking care of your elderly parents. Want to give the best to your children? Want to live life with greater fulfillment and satisfaction instead of instant gratification. Want to travel and see the world? (honestly, nothing wrong with wanting to do that. It isn’t crass or materialistic. If God really created such a beautiful world, I think he would perfectly understand the desire in us to see it) Christianity can give that to you. And so much more. God created us so that we would be able to experience life together with him (or her), share in its joys of exploring, discovery and creating, but things kinda got fucked along the way, but God is here to help us make everything right again. Do you want his help? Jesus came so that we can have life abundantly.
I know some Christians argue that the verse is talking about eternal life. But really, God just wants us to suffer in this one until we die and go to heaven and then we start enjoying from then on? I thought we were born again in this world, when we repent and accept our salvation. Babies yes. But isn’t the born again life starting here? Sure, we need to grow. Sure, we would need to suffer and be tested. But shouldn’t the good life start here. How small your God is if it can only happen when you die and go to heaven. But of course, I agree that the good life can start without being rich in all that is called materialism. But lusting after material wealth isn’t the same as wanting to be prosperous.
The great mistake when commenting on the prosperity message is assuming that it is always about having enough for your car, condo, country club blah blah blah. What arrogance! Do you actually believe when we want more, we all want ‘your more’. Some people just want to be able to study. To have that next meal. To take care of the health costs of their sick relatives. To indulge a bit. To eat nice chocolate. To give that present to a friend they really love.
The prosperity message is preached because there is an understanding that some people can’t even meet certain material needs or enjoy what a lot of us take for granted. Yes, there is nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy more. Hell, there is nothing wrong with wanting to feed a guy before telling him how he can’t live on bread alone.
But you see, no one, no one who condemns City Harvest Church and its prosperity message ever ever talks about the next thing. Yes. The next thing. You can do two things when you are rich (actually a lot of things, but for argument’s sake, I’m simplifying).
1. You can hoard it.
2. You can share it.
Sorry to disappoint you all, but CHC doesn’t advocate 1. In fact, they advocate number 2 to a fault. The leaders in the church (or at least those I know) always talk about having more so that we can be a conduit on this earth to give to others.
It is through us that we can bless others.
The prosperity message is a one-two, left-hand jab, right-hand upper cut move.
Another thing. The blogger talks about how Pastor Kong took the verses out of context. I’m no expert in bible translation, but I think the King James Version came before the English Standard Version.
Which doesn’t really mean a thing.
I just wanted to point out that we can argue all we want about what a verse means when one translation uses a different word compared to another translation and it would be pointless. At least to me. Because I mean, aren’t there other things to consider. Like the source. And how the actual word used in the source was rich in meanings and it was up to the translator’s interpretation that we get the word in the translated version.
So to imply someone is abusing a verse just because the other translated version uses a different word is a bit disingenuous.
Or course, that doesn’t mean the blogger’s argument that the verse was taken out of context is invalid.
Finally about the sermons being no different from self-improvement talks. That is false. Of course, things might have changed now and what he said has validity. Anyway, I couldn’t find the mentioned sermon on the site, so I’ll just use what I know from the past to say this.
Setting goals, achieving them, realizing our best in finances, marriage, relationships and the works is very much relevant to our Christian walk. Our Christian walk is not just about our relationship with Jesus Christ. It is important of course, if not the most important thing. It isn’t just the only thing.
Simple example albeit not a perfect analogy.
Say I love my gf. A lot. But our relationship would be a little stale don’t you think if its spent just walking on the beach, the two of us, just talking about our relationship.
But what if I bring her into other aspects of my life which is also important. Like my career. She plays a part because I try to let her understand the decisions I make. I consult her for the decisions I’m going to make. But I don’t always run back to her. She doesn’t need to be part of every single decision I make. Sometimes, I can be decisive and make some on my own. After all, I got the brains, the training, the reasoning, the knowledge and hopefully the wisdom to do so.
To say our Christian walk is one and not the other is to bring a false dichotomy. Our Christian walk is everything about our life. And how God can be part of it. But God being part of it doesn’t mean every single thing is deferred to God.
A terrible example to use. After the tsunami, a friend asked me why God didn’t do something. Why didn’t he intervene?
And I asked, why should God do anything?
God made us right? He gave us intelligence. He gave us will. He gave us understanding. He gave us the ability to make choices.
The tsunami’s damage could have been mitigated if some places had better warning systems. But no investment was made. Humans made the choice to do nothing about something they had the power to do.
So, how is a church leader teaching us practical steps in self-improvement bringing God into our lives and how is that improving our Christian walk?
Well, in one way, we are learning from a person anointed by Christ. I think there is some power in that.
Secondly, when we live our life well, it is a testament to God, especially when we acknowledge that God had a part to play. But to live it well, we need to know how. Right?
Thirdly, and I’m using what I learned about marriage from CHC here, you got to be able to do both the practical and the spiritual. From what I know, the leaders from CHC always say that in the end, God has to come into the picture.
For example, marriage is not between two people but three. Me, my spouse and God. We were taught how to bring God into the marriage. However, we were also taught practical steps in making the marriage work.
Like:
1. If I stay back after work, I will always inform my wife my whereabouts.
2. Even if there are people in the office, and I claim I’m not attracted to the female colleague, I work where the door is open, the blinds are up.
3. If I have to travel, I bring a male companion instead of a female one. If a female one needs to come, I try to bring three people along and arrange such that different sexes do not share room.
Practical steps. Why does a church need to teach this?
Because it is about accountability. And how accountability has to be part of our life. If we can’t be accountable in stuff like this, how can we be accountable to God.
Take what happens when you get into the car. You believe that God will protect you. You even prayed. But you still wear a seatbelt. It is protection. Practical protection.
You need both. To do the practical stuff and the spiritual stuff. Both has a part.
So, our relationship with God is the most important thing. And we got to work on it. But to work solely on it is a little off. We work on other aspects of our lives and always make sure that God is a part of it. So while, we may not be spending most of our time directly working on the relationship with God, by bringing him into every aspect of our lives, we are indirectly strengthening it.
Like, instead of just talking to my gf about our relationship and how it can be better and always just being only with her, both of us take up a hobby together with our friends. We both learn a skill and while not exactly working on the relationship directly, the relationship grows.
To end, listen to the above mentioned blogger’s advice.
“I shall also pray that you shall learn to discern and seek to study the Bible and learn what God teaches about the Christian life, instead of listening to the apostasy many teachers now falsely teach.”
Remember though, teachers come in all forms, and the pulpit isn’t just in a church.
A blog can be a pulpit too.

Christ | 07-Jan-08 at 3:33 pm | Permalink
“I agree that the good life can start without being rich in all that is called materialism. But lusting after material wealth isn’t the same as wanting to be prosperous.” really I like this phrases in your article because its agreeable and I have gone through your whole article starting for your woke up and its great to read and know some thing new about the CHC.
Estee | 07-Jan-08 at 4:01 pm | Permalink
Hey Ian, thanks for sharing I did once go to CHC too. I left for many reasons, but all I must say is that I love CHC still. I think they are an awesome church and doing a lot to change the spiritual landscape in Singapore (for the better). They also do a lot of social work and play a major role in community development.
We can all start pointing fingers on which church is preaching unsound doctrine etc, but seriously, there isn’t once right or best church. All churches should worship Jesus and know that no one can receive salvation through their own doing, but because of the grace of God.
Why waste time bitching about how bad a church is? Some churches are more suitable for a certain kind of person and we all need to find out own niches in our church. Just because my father doesn’t attend cell group of raise his hands in worship or give that much money to his church, doesnt mean he loves God less than someone who gives the church a whole lot of money.
Yes of course giving can be a good way to quantify commitment and love, but there sure are others.
I think before i, or anyone judge, we should take the plank out of our own eyes before we pick the speck of dirt out of someone else’s.
I still support city harvest in what they do, they are a great church and continue to have a positive impact on society, May God continue to use them.
iantimothy | 07-Jan-08 at 4:16 pm | Permalink
Hey Estee, thanks for sharing about your own experiences.
About the father part, when I first joined CHC, I invited my father along, and I was asking ‘why can’t my father see how awesome this place is’.
And then I realized what you said – there are different kinds of church with different ways of ministering to their members.
Sicarii | 07-Jan-08 at 6:11 pm | Permalink
Ah, such a nice subtle way to call me a hypocrite.
In the first place, Ian, do you know what the prosperity gospel is, and how much harm it is doing? Instead of teaching godliness, it is teaching that God is a vending machine and going to church and giving is like trying to strike lottery.
The example you gave is not what the prosperity gospel is teaching.
Teaching the prosperity gospel is akin to helping people build their faith on shifting sands and not on the solid rock that’s God’s word!
I also find it funny that you say that turning to God and not wanting to go to hell is cheapening the relationship between oneself and God. In which case, what say you about Jesus Christ’s promise of eternal life if you believe upon His name?
I’ll tell you what is cheapening the relationship! That Jesus Christ suffered and died for our sins so that we can have the material things that our hearts desire?! That’s what the prosperity gospel is teaching.
Anyhow, I don’t expect that everyone will agree or disagree with me. What I wrote is my personal opinion, and you have been free to disagree.
Shalom Aleichem.
iantimothy | 07-Jan-08 at 8:29 pm | Permalink
Firstly, whose prosperity gospel are you talking about? I am pretty sure that there are many variants even within CHC.
The one I learned is not about treating God like a vending machine and where giving is like trying to strike the lottery.
I shall not go into the prosperity gospel I have learned from CHC in this comment.
But I would like to say this. CHC is a big church. Sometimes things aren’t consistent throughout the church.
I was blessed to have a good cell group leader. The things we should learn cannot be learned in one sermon, so the cell group leader plays a part in reinforcing what we need to learn for our spiritual growth.
I won’t be surprised if some cell group leaders may have given a wrong twist to the prosperity message but I do not believe that is something CHC is systematically guilty of.
Turning to God just because I don’t want to go to hell is most definitely cheapening the relationship. It is like going out with a girl just because I don’t want to be beaten up by her older brother.
Turning to God just because I want material things is also most definitely cheapening the relationship. It is like going out with a girl just because her father is rich.
Here is what to me doesn’t cheapen the relationship. I turn to God because I love him. I love him not because I want to love him so I don’t go to hell. I love him because I want to love him. Period. If I love him just for my salvation, the salvation just becomes another thing in a market exchange. My love exchanged for salvation.
I want to love him because I want to hang out with God throughout eternity. Cos I think that a God who created this earth and the universe must be a pretty cool dude and I just want to be with him.
I love him because he sent his son to die for me. He paid the price of sin for us. I love him because he did all that and doesn’t stick it in my face. He doesn’t say, ‘Look, dude, you owe me’. NO!!! I want to love him because he says, ‘dude, I settled the bill, come, let’s go hang out, but its cool if you wanna do your own thing’.
I understand that if I do my own thing, there are consequences, and that is hell. But it shouldn’t be because of hell that I go to hang out with God. It should be because God is already so cool that it doesn’t make sense not to be with him.
If I want to have a relationship with God and accept Jesus Christ’s gift of eternal life it is because having eternal life in heaven is the only way to be with a cool dude like God. Not because I want to avoid a hot, sweaty, smelly place with the wannabe Lucifer.
Simply put – I want to accept salvation so that I can continue loving God and be in his presence.
Not love God so that I can get salvation and skip hell.
And you know something. God desires the best for us. I believe that. It isn’t always material. Well, not for all of us. Some of us can handle material wealth. Some of us can’t. God knows. Jesus died for our sins not so we can have the material things we desire, but so God can bless us with what he desires for us to have be it material, spiritual, friends …
The prosperity message is more subtle than your vending machine-lottery analogy. Of course, I’m also guilty of bad analogies.
iantimothy | 07-Jan-08 at 8:40 pm | Permalink
In a way, I don’t invite you for the party because you will bring booze and hot babes.
I invited you so that I can hang out with you and I accept that hot babes and booze are probably going to be at the party if you come but I don’t care because it’s all about hanging out with you. It just so happens that because you are so cool, if you come to the party, the booze and babes will come.
And I know that. I accept that. I might even make plans for that. Forgive me, but I might even look forward to that. And when the booze and babes come, forgive me, but I’m sure not going to deny myself fun together with them and you.
But if you come and say no booze, no babes, I’m still cool with that no matter how much I might have looked forward to it. Cos you are here.
And if you tell me that let’s ditch the party and just go for a nice cup of coffee, I’ll take that too.
Cos it’s all about the dude.
Tommy | 07-Jan-08 at 11:21 pm | Permalink
Well, whatever you are writing above is going round and round back to zero.
Hmmm…nvm. It doesn’t matter. Everyone has their own opinion. But at least you spoke out.
iantimothy | 08-Jan-08 at 12:14 am | Permalink
Hahaha. Thanks Tommy although I don’t think it is going round and round back to zero. I think the path is a bit more convoluted.
But hey, I get your point.
Would love to hear your opinion though.
Sicarii | 08-Jan-08 at 1:00 am | Permalink
You’re more against the prosperity gospel than you initially thought, Ian.
Good for you!
And I agree with what you said about loving God and that’s why we should be desiring to be with Him. We also should bear in mind that without God loving us first, it’ll be impossible for us to love Him in return.
The danger of the prosperity gospel is that it doesn’t teach the love and fear of God. People go to church and turn to God only so that their material needs are met. It elevates gifts above the Giver, who is God.
Shalom Aleichem.
Daniel Chew | 11-Jan-08 at 12:07 am | Permalink
Actually, Ian, when you deride the Gospel as a hell insurance policy, what you are actally saying is that you think you (and many other people) do not deserve to go to hell. In other words, you think you are perfectly fine and good and in fact, given heaven and hell, you should go to heaven.
Such being the case, I would like to challenge you to defend your assumption of your basic goodness. Prove that any person, or at least you, deserve to go to heaven, and/or don’t deserve to go to hell.
iantimothy | 11-Jan-08 at 11:57 am | Permalink
Actually, I think you have misunderstood me. I would be the first person to say I deserve to go to hell based on my own merits (or rather lack of merits).
It is only by the grace of God that anyone of us get the chance to heaven.
When I deride the Gospel as a hell insurance policy, I’m not saying that I think I do not deserve to go to hell. You are saying that for me. No thanks for that.
I deride people’s acceptance of the Gospel and their ‘belief’ in God when they use it solely as a hell insurance policy.
Am I in a position to say every Christian does that. No. Am I in a position to say that some ‘Christians’ do that. Yes.
The difference to me is this and I hope you are intelligent (or maybe wise) enough to catch the subtle distinction.
1. I am afraid of something (i.e. hell) and then I engage in the act of loving and following God because I know that by loving and following God I can’t get out of hell. In this sense, my ‘faith’ is only to escape hell.
2. I love and follow God because of who he is and what he represents. I love him for the only reason of wanting to love him. Because of me loving and following him, by his grace I get into heaven. In this sense, my faith is just so I get can closer to God.
I hope that you wouldn’t be blinded by your need to challenge everyone (or maybe just me) who you think is filled with pride and see no need for God that you cannot see the distinction I am making.
Daniel Chew | 11-Jan-08 at 6:32 pm | Permalink
Ok, I have re-read the post and the comments, and it seemed I have misunderstood you. Yet, I do not see the rationale behind all your convoluted argumentations, which seem purposely ambiguous.
With regards to yourself, care to share why you left the faith?
iantimothy | 11-Jan-08 at 10:32 pm | Permalink
“…convoluted argumentations which seem purposely ambiguous…”
Maybe it is convoluted because:
1. Your mind can’t wrap around the notion that maybe not every argument can be nicely separated into a ‘for’ and ‘against’.
2. This is a blog post which I’m using as a jotter book for my thoughts and not an essay.
But I think while I may be long winded and despite the points made above, I think if you take your head out wherever you are sticking it, you will know what I’m clearly saying.
And about your other comment, why are you trying to be difficult?
That post clearly shows that I’m trying to reconcile everything I have learned in science with what I have learned in church.
To save you time going back to the post to re-read it, here is the paragraph:
“Of course, there are people who want the best of both worlds. They want to believe in a god and also want to reconcile that belief with science. I am one such person. Personally, I don’t believe there is any contradiction between Creationism and Darwinism because I do not subscribe to the notion that the Bible is a complete work that contains the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Like how a plant grows through the planting of the seed by the gardener, god could have created us by laying that seed which through the process of evolution, things have come to be.”
So it is like this – I try to understand everything using my own reasoning while trying to reconcile everything I have learned from the sciences and from church (i.e. bible, sermons …) with some occasional shaking of the fist at God.
Daniel Chew | 12-Jan-08 at 2:14 am | Permalink
Ian:
I am not trying to be difficult. I am enquiring into your source of authority or your epistemological basis. I think your comment is revealing as to one possible reason why you reject Christianity. You have a false sense of security as to the truthfulness and validity of your senses, and trust Man (more accurately yourself) more than God. After all, you did say:
‘I try to understand everything using my own reasoning while trying to reconcile everything I have learned from the sciences and from church’
So, what make you so certain of the truthfulness of everything you have learned from the sciences (or the Arts too)? After all, just because science is able to make our lives better does not mean that ALL that calls itself science is in fact truth. Just look at the various errors and hoaxes that call themselves ’science’ at one time or another in history (ie Piltdown Man, Embryonic Recapitulation, Vestigal Organs, Peppered moths etc.).
And btw, I am working in the scientific research industry, so I am not agaist science per se, but against the fairy tales that are falsely called science and are believed by humanists (as a matter of faith).
iantimothy | 12-Jan-08 at 10:07 am | Permalink
Well, firstly, I don’t believe in the truthfulness of everything in science. Neither do I believe everything I learned from the church.
Trying to reconcile both doesn’t mean I have to believe totally in either.
Secondly, your reason why I rejected Christianity is wrong. I would try to explain why you are wrong but I believe it would be to no avail.
Daniel Chew | 13-Jan-08 at 1:41 am | Permalink
Well, please do so. There are only a few reasons I can think of why a person, especially one brought up in the faith, would leave Christianity, and definitely waking up one day with a sudden irrational desire to do so is not one of them.
iantimothy | 13-Jan-08 at 2:39 pm | Permalink
Since there are only a few reasons, why don’t you list them?
Daniel Chew | 13-Jan-08 at 10:07 pm | Permalink
Well, if you want to know:
Falling into sins like homosexuality or fornication, awed by humanistic/other religious interpretation of knowledge like the “sciences”, rebellion against parents, finding it boring, want to appear “cool”, stumbled by hypocrites; these are some of the usual ones that I know of
iantimothy | 14-Jan-08 at 10:54 am | Permalink
How totally predictable reasons to give.
asmine | 14-Jan-08 at 6:35 pm | Permalink
hey ian, Whatever is it, Do love God &draw closer to Him because he is a great God
Anyway, To be frank, Kong Hee is a great pastor God had sent to CityHarvestChurch, or else do you think Cityharvest can be one of the greatest church in Singapore?
I won’t say you’re wrong, because i do understand different people do have different views/thinking. But one thing, no one is perfect accept JesusChrist our Lord. AMEN!
God bless you!
stillhaventfound.org | 15-Jan-08 at 1:46 am | Permalink
Hi Ian.
Do share with us why you’ve stopped attending church. From what I read, I think you still believe in God and maybe Jesus but maybe not too keen in institutional Christianity? Maybe I’m wrong. But do share with us.
G’day my old friend Daniel. I see you’re still at it strong
Ha…
Take care ya all!
evolution scientist | 16-Jan-08 at 10:57 pm | Permalink
And here We see Exhibit A putting up an argument and Exhibit B Sicarii trying to impose his own idea of a “GOD”. Well thank god, I won’t be going to either of your heavens.
iantimothy | 17-Jan-08 at 12:18 am | Permalink
Hey ‘evolution scientist’ … you say it like we care. I don’t care where you’re going. Just have fun there. And send me a postcard.
thomsonview | 24-Jan-08 at 11:56 pm | Permalink
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the Word of Faith teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer. Thus God’s ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). Love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Beware and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word Faith’s gospel’s emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.
iantimothy | 25-Jan-08 at 11:46 am | Permalink
Like I’ve said many times, wanting to be prosperous does not equal to love of money.
If money is the ends, then yup, maybe something is terribly wrong.
But money can be the means to an end. It isn’t the only means, but it can be a mightily helpful one.
You cannot serve God and riches, but you can most definitely serve God with your riches. Can you serve God better?
That’s arguable. I think its not so much better, but different.
Agagooga | 25-Jan-08 at 2:24 pm | Permalink
http://gssq.blogspot.com/2007/01/vist-to-cash-harvest-cult-i-went-to.html
A visit to Cash Harvest Cult
iantimothy | 25-Jan-08 at 2:55 pm | Permalink
Hey, I read this post before. The funny thing is the same thing can be happening but people will have different perspectives on it.
Really depends on your internal beliefs, values and principles.
But that post is one harsh post.
Agagooga | 27-Jan-08 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
Just because people have different perspectives does not mean that all perspectives are equally justified.
iantimothy | 27-Jan-08 at 3:27 pm | Permalink
True. What makes the one you shared justified?
Agagooga | 28-Jan-08 at 2:28 am | Permalink
The justifications are outlined in the post.
iantimothy | 28-Jan-08 at 11:23 am | Permalink
The cunning justifications, impeccable logic, plausible reasons could be an after the fact rationalization of what the person wants to perceive because of a probable irrational bias.
Above applies to everyone.
Agagooga | 29-Jan-08 at 1:05 am | Permalink
What is truth?
e pur si muove
iantimothy | 29-Jan-08 at 2:49 am | Permalink
Apparently whatever you believe.
Wendy’s Wendylicious Whims » Blog Archive » What I have against City Harvest Church | 29-Jan-08 at 8:20 am | Permalink
[...] had a few thoughts as I was reading this article, and a response to it. I’ve attended City Harvest on quite a few occassions since I was Sec 3 [...]
zackett | 15-Feb-08 at 4:18 am | Permalink
Fantastic article. But there’s just one BIG problem. You’ve grasped what it means to love. But you haven’t grasp what it means to love the Lord Jesus Christ. Big difference that.
Loving the Lord means obedience. Disobedience is rebellion, akin to witchcraft.
Loving the Lord isn’t about wanting to hang out with the Dude.
What’s the point of hanging out with the Dude if everytime the Dude commands obedience, you say,’Nope, aint gonna do it.’
C’mon man, this is THE DUDE – Lord Almighty, Ancient of Days, Creator. Not some third-rate Jedi wannabe, not your high school buddy.
And obedience is all about our human will. Will you or will you not obey? If you obey, you love. If you disobey, you are not loving. (No matter how much you wanna hang out with the Dude.) And if you persist in disobeying again and again ….well, you know very well which way you’re headed.
Ian On The Red Dot :: Why Should I Obey God? | 15-Feb-08 at 3:24 pm | Permalink
[...] was a comment for this post which I found interesting. Below are the parts I want to highlight Loving the Lord means obedience. Disobedience is rebellion, akin to witchcraft. Loving the Lord [...]
wjm86 | 03-Jun-08 at 4:05 pm | Permalink
Hi Ian I must really say that I appreciate the amount of thought that you’ve put into your posts and that they’re really very sensible, intelligent and honest. I would love to have friendly discussions with you on these matters.
On the suject of love and obedience, I agree with you that one can be obedient and yet not loving. One aspect I’d like to bring up is that the God we are talking about is the Almighty God who’s gracious and loving yet fully capable of zapping us into a pile of ashes(lol). I feel that the kind of love and attitude that we should have towards God is one of a child to a father. We love our dads and always want to hang out and have fun with them, sometimes joking and even poking fun at them. However, there is always a respect and reverence that we should have for our fathers, a line that we never cross because of who they are. This is where we do what we are told because we love or Father God. The perfect obedience-love relationship can be seen in Jesus’s relationship with Father God, that He obeyed the Father even unto death.
The same goes for our love towards Jesus, that it should be a revered love towards our Lord. There is also to be a balance, where Jesus also desires to be our friend and who knows, He might just turn out to be a really fun loving person!
We, as imperfect people, will always be unable to adhere to and to obey each and every commandment in the bible. Everybody has his own weakness and shortcoming and it is really God’s grace that helps us to be able to continue walking with our heads up high without shame. What really matters is that we try our best to love God and obey His commandments. That, I believe is what really pleases God and why Jesus died on the cross for us.
This leads to the last point: how we should act. I feel that we should base our actions on our best morals and convictions and also our best interpretations on the Word of God. We shouldn’t just blindly accept what others tell us as the truth or what is right, but should carefully think about the content’s soundness (not the best word I can think of) and sensibility (This will lead to another discussion about truth but lets not delve into that now). However, we should also stay receptive of other’s opinions as they do offer us a venue for improvement. Lastly, this is also quite abstract: being led by the spirit, that we do what we do because the Holy Spirit tells us to. This is quite a prickly matter to explain to people but I’m sure you do understand what I am trying to drive at having attended City Harvest.
Do reply to me regarding your thoughts and opinions. Cheers!
iantimothy | 03-Jun-08 at 4:40 pm | Permalink
Hello wjm86. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It is greatly appreciated and I enjoyed reading your comment.
Justin | 05-Oct-08 at 2:45 pm | Permalink
Amen.
I’m a City Harvester, and I agree with everything you’ve said. Also, about the prosperity message, I’d just like to point this one out- giving to the Lord is giving in Faith he’ll repay you with every single bit. The prosperity message in CHC is actually more of encouraging us to give to the Lord, not to the church. We can’t give directly to God, so the next best is when we help to build God’s house. Isn’t that what Solomon did? Is anything wrong with encouraging people to give to God’s house?
psyche | 12-Oct-08 at 6:19 pm | Permalink
http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/st…179657,00.html
why do city harvest support fraudulent pastors?
Real True Christian | 29-Dec-08 at 1:33 am | Permalink
Don’t attend Service at CHC, its misguiding and irrelevant from Gods true message
dan | 31-Dec-08 at 1:09 am | Permalink
dear all, please read this article “does God wants you to be rich”.
http://www.ministrywatch.com/pdf/Article_092706_TerryAustin.pdf
regarding justin’s post, there is nothing wrong to encourage people to give as the church needs donations in order to function.
but it is not commendable when the pastor actually ‘entices’ the congregants to give with the promise that ‘God will repay your offerings in many folds’. if giving means present voluntarily and without thoughts of compensation, dont you think that the message behind the prosperity gospel perverts the true meaning of giving?
likewise, i find that the pastor likes to make use of the ’sacrifice’ word during the offering and he will add on about how Jesus died on the cross for us, sounding as if when we do not give to the church, we do not deserve God’s love. with the pastor’s emotional blackmailing and his outstretched hands soliciting for donations, it seems that we are giving offering not because we want to but we ae compelled to?
therefore i say, instead of giving youself in to your pastor’s constant bombardment for offering, we should be instead supporting many of the community outreach programmes organised by our church. surely i believe that the money can be put in better use to help the poor and the needy than to purchase expensive multimedia system to attract young converts.
lastly, i really do believe that Jesus is more interested in feed the hungry and clothe the naked than to enrich the ordinary city harvesters.
just a two cents from an ordinary city harvester who does not subscribe to the prosperity gospel and the coercive offering collection method employed by the church.
SERVENT | 17-Feb-09 at 3:46 pm | Permalink
Hi all beloved.
is really suprise me on the topic tat all of you are discussing ! Dont worry !I’not a leader nor a Pastor.
as you know since the fall of man, no one is perfect. “the CHURCH is perfect until I & You come in.”(all church in the world)
Who are we to judge the servant of GOD(ofcouse the word of God remind us DONT be deceive by false prophet & teaching)
So what does Jesus say ??
JUDGE on my fruitss!!
dear breathen,
i hope you understand what i mean !!???
lets embrace in Unity, Love, Hope no matter which church are you from ?? We are call the body of Christ for a reason
God bless
AntiPlato | 03-Apr-09 at 11:03 pm | Permalink
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the article. There are too many Christians who love to attack other Christians. These people are like cancer cells that try to destroy it’s own Body. Sad really…but I’m glad that you’re defending City Harvest even if you don’t regard yourself a Christian anymore.
Besides, there is a huge difference between a Christian, and a Follower of Jesus. The Roman Catholic Crusaders of the last millennium were Christians, but their murderous nature showed they were the ‘children of the devil’, or people who acted according to evil rather than good.
Mahatma Gandhi on the other hand, was not a Christian. He was a Hindu. But he said this:
“Jesus occupies in my heart the place of one of the greatest teachers who have had a considerable influence on my life. I shall say to the Hindus that your life will be incomplete unless you reverentially study the teachings of Jesus… Make this world the kingdom of God and his righteousness and everything will be added unto you.
…what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount… I am speaking of the Christian belief, of Christianity as it is understood in the west.”
A Follower of Jesus is very different to a Christian. And it’s better to be a Hindu Follower of Jesus than an un-Christlike Christian. (Of course, there are also Christians who are indeed Followers of Jesus.)
A Follower of Jesus is someone who focuses on what was important to Jesus, such as Love, Social Justice, and Wholeness. To be a follower of Jesus is to treat people the way he did, to love people the way he did, to have compassion for people the way he did.
Personally, I think that anyone can be a Follower of Jesus without having to believe in the particular theological doctrines of this or that denomination. (e.g. Tongues vs. no tongues; Catholic vs. Protestant; Temporal vs. Eternal Hell etc.)
A Follower of Jesus will believe Jesus when He says “By this shall all people know that you are my disciples (students), that you have love, one for another.”
Perhaps you may no longer call yourself a Christian or be a part of the Christian religion, but perhaps, like Gandhi, you are a Follower of Jesus.
If you have the time, maybe have a look at “Jesus Before Christianity” by Albert Nolan. You might enjoy it.
Take care, and Love everyone!
iantimothy | 06-Apr-09 at 11:35 am | Permalink
Hello @AntiPlato… Thanks for your comment. It very succinctly expresses my perspectives about religion.
yt | 17-Sep-09 at 2:22 am | Permalink
i say help pick up litters on the streets, stop talking back to your parents, help an old lady cross the road, stop working n schooling politics. Religion is like your pillow, no one shares the same smell btu its identical =D
melody | 18-Nov-09 at 8:51 pm | Permalink
I think that CHC Is Horrible too!!! I hate that church… Well I think that new creation is better!!
Robin Leong | 04-Apr-10 at 3:16 pm | Permalink
Why dont you all write to Pastor Kevin Loo?
Jonathan CHM | 20-May-10 at 1:55 pm | Permalink
How could a non-Christian be born again?
Should a person use only one verse to conclude messages that God intends for us? Let’s meditate Matthew 5:9 as follows: Matthew 5:9, “Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. As the word, peacemakers, is mentioned in Matthew 5:9 with the phrase, the children of God, a false message could come about that as long as a person, whether he is a believer or not, declares peace in this world, he or she could be considered as a child of God or a Christian. Thus, using a verse to conclude God’s message is erroneous.
Examples to prove that not all the people, that proclaim to believe in Jesus, will automatically granted with the Holy Spirit:
1) Acts 19:1-2, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.” The phrase, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed, in Acts 19:1-2 implies that not all the people, that believe in Jesus, would automatically be granted with the Holy Spirit or else it would not justifiable for Acts 19:1-2 to enquire whether these people had received the Holy Spirit at the time of their believes with the assumption that the Holy Spirit would automatically be granted at the time when they began to believe.
2) Acts 8:14-17, “…Samaria HAD RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD,….when they were come down, PRAYED FOR THEM, THAT THEY MIGHT RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.). Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” As the phrase, received the word of God, is mentioned in Acts 8:14-17 with the phrase, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, it implies that believing in Jesus does not imply a person would receive the Holy Spirit automatically unless requesting it.
3) Matthew 7:21, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” The phrase, every one that saith unto me Lord Lord, in Matthew 7:21 refers undoubtedly to those people that believe in Jesus since they call Jesus to be their Lord. Would these believers be accepted by the Lord? No, they will not be accepted by the Lord since Matthew 7:23, “(mentions that) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” As these people, that call Jesus as Lord, could be rejected by Him in the last days, it implies that not all, that believe in Jesus to be their Lord, are Christians.
Is it irrational to use Matthew 7:21-23 to jump into conclusion that Christians would lose salvation since 1 Corinth 3:12 opposes it? The following is the extract:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. IF ANY MAN’S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.”
As proved above that Matthew 7:21 should not be applicable to backsliders since Christians would never lose their salvation, the only possible reason to think of and that is those people that are mentioned in Matthew 7:21 that proclaim Jesus to be Lord are not Christians at all.
The same is supported in Luke 13:24-25 that many believe in Jesus and yet not many are saved. The following is the extract:
Luke 13:24-25, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, WILL SEEK TO ENTER IN, AND SHALL NOT BE ABLE. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT WHENCE YE ARE:” The same is mentioned in Matthew 22:14, “(that) For many are called, but few [are] chosen.”
Some Christians might use the two criminals that hung on the cross as an excuse for not requesting the receipt of the Holy Spirit. They have to bear in mind that Jesus had not resurrected yet at that time and the criminals did confess that they were sinners too. Besides, one of the criminals did not reject when Jesus called him to follow Him to be with Him in the paradise. Do you find this to be his acceptance of Jesus for his confession when he agreed to be with the Lord to be in the paradise without opposing Him?.
Should a Christian declare that faith alone could save a person without accompanying with any action? James 2:21-24, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY.” The same is mentioned in James 2:18, “(that) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY AITH BY WORKS. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
Should a non-Christian repent for their sins or should he or she declare to believe in Jesus and yet worship Buddha simultaneously? John the Baptist went before Jesus to declare repentance and this shows that repentance is significant for Christianity’s conversion. James 1:21, “(even mentions that) Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” As the phrase, lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, is mentioned in James 1:21 prior to the phrase, receive…the engrafted word, it implies the significance of repentance prior to receiving Jesus as his or her Personal Saviour.
Why should a non-Christian confess sin? 1 John 1:8, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” As the phrase, we say that we have no sin, is mentioned in 1 John 1:8 with the phrase, the truth is not in us, it implies that non-Christians would not have God’s truth with them if they declare that they are not sinners. As God’s truth is not with non-Christians if they do not confess that they are sinners before God, there is a query whether God would dwell within their bodies at the absence of biblical truth in them. Thus, it is a must for non-Christians to declare before God to be sinners to seek His forgiveness. The absolute promise of God for those who confess their sins before Him and that is: 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Repentance and confession are significant to non-Christians for their receipts of the Holy Spirit since John 9:31, “(mentions that)…God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” The phrase, God heareth not sinners, in John 9:31 implies God’s rejection of those non-Christians that insist not to repent and continuing in worshipping Buddha and the insisting that they are not sinners before God. These people would have their prayers to be in vain even if they declare to believe Jesus Christ and Buddha at the same time. The phrase, God heareth not sinners, in John 9:31 implies purity is significant for non-Christians’ conversions and prior to the receipt of the Holy Spirit and that is why it demands non-Christians to repent and to confess their sins before God to have their sins to be cleansed for purity. Thus, it is significant for all the people that declare to believe in Jesus Christ to have their sins to confess before God especially Psalms 5:4, “(mentions that) For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.” Psalms 5:4 seems to highlight to us that God would not dwell among non-Christians if sins are with them. For this reason, it is advisable for all the people that declare to believe in Jesus Christ to confess their sins before God so as to have their sins to be cleansed with purity for God’s dwelling.
Did the Gospel highlight to us to request for the Holy Spirit? The following are the extracted verses to prove that Jesus and even His disciples did request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit:
1) John 4:10, “Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water.” The phrase, have asked of him, in John 4:10 has stressed the significance of the request for the Holy Spirit.
2) John 6:32-34, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. THEN SAID THEY UNTO HIM, LORD EVERMORE GIVE US THIS BREAD.” The phrase, Then said they unto him Lord evermore give us this bread, in John 6:34 is another proof that Jesus’ disciples did request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. However, their requests could only be fulfilled after Jesus’ resurrection in the Calvary.
3) Luke 11:13, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
From the above extracts, it gives an absolute certainty that a person could receive the Holy Spirit through requesting for the receipt of the Holy Spirit.
Assurance from God that we will receive the Holy Spirit when we ask from Him: Luke 11:10, “For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” The same is supported in Mark 11:24, “(that) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].”
Romans 10:9, “(mentions that) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” This verse implies that our faith should be grounded upon the resurrection of Jesus. Muslims too believe in Jesus, but they reject the resurrection of Jesus. However, Romans 10:9 demands not only to confess Jesus but also to believe He has been resurrected.
Sinner’s prayer has met the requisition of the confession since it demands non-Christians to confess themselves before God of their believes in the name of Lord Jesus Christ. It demands also the non-Christians to acknowledge the resurrection of Jesus and that meets the requirement of Romans 10:9. Not only that, it requires non-Christians to confess their sins before God for purification and also to express their needs for Jesus Christ to be their Personal Saviour. One should bear in mind that God will deny those people that believe in Jesus and yet refuse to proclaim the name of Jesus. The following are the extracts:
1) Luke 9:26, “For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father’s, and of the holy angels.”
2) Luke 12:8-9, “Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.”
3) Matthew 10:32, “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”
There should not be any worry if a person does not have confidence whether he has received the Holy Spirit before and he should not hesitate but to ask for the receipt of the Holy Spirit since spiritual baptism only takes effect once. Once a person has received the Holy Spirit, he would not receive any more in the future since Ephesians 4:5, “(mentions that) One Lord, one faith, one baptism”. The phrase, one baptism, in Ephesians 4:5 implies one spiritual baptism instead of more than once.
Now, let’s meditate Matthew 5:9 again: Matthew 5:9, “Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God”. As we know once a person receives Jesus Christ to be His Personal Saviour, his spiritual fruits will grow and that includes peace in God and that is why Jesus mentions Matthew 5:9 to be appropriate since Christians would have their spiritual fruits to grow and these include peace, one of the spiritual fruits (John 15:5).
Lyn | 07-Jun-10 at 7:37 pm | Permalink
It is heartening to read some of the thoughts being shared here: “I love him (God) because I want to love him.
Period. If I love him just for my salvation, the salvation just becomes another thing in a market exchange.”
Interchange “salvation” with “prosperity”, same effect. Emphasizing on prosperity as a means of getting great numbers of followers is inconsistent with this believe. Do we want to encourage people to go to church for the wrong reasons and wrong motives. Scriptures have always warn us about the temptations of greed because it has known all too well about the weaknesses of our human nature which will most certainly lead humans to succumb to them.
In these modern times, many seek instant gratification and nowadays, the need to “feel good” has also crept into the way the church conducts its service to the point where it resembles a rock concert entertainment for the sake of drawing great numbers of followers. So what’s wrong about feeling good? Not if you know why you are there in the first place… is it because you truly want to know God and build a relationship with Him or is it for some other “ulterior” motives.
Some have given excuses that we must change with the times and hence, coin the term “the cultural mandate”
and “penetrating the marketplace”. I presume they are talking about using “pop (popular) culture” to spread the Gospel. The two are strange bedfellows, don’t you think? This is also another “feel good” concept which they deem to be “wholesome shallowness”. It’s hardly wholesome, to say the least, in the business of pop culture as
can be seen in the media. But one thing’s for certain, it’s all about feeling good. It seems like trying to justify the means to suit one’s interest.
If the focus is on feeling good all the time, they will most certainly have forgotten Jesus command “to take up your cross and follow me”. This is rather unpopular (as oppose to pop (popular)) culture, you see. But as scripture says God values what humans shun.
Jonathan CHM | 11-Jun-10 at 8:41 am | Permalink
I fully agree with Lyn’s explanation. Gospel should not be based upon material propsrity. Once a person presses too much upon material prosperity, materials blessing would become the idolatry to a non-christian. This is due to non-christians might place the love of material blessings more significant to God and this goes against the Ten Commandments of God in which we have to put our love superior than anything else and that includes material prosperity.
I might deal with it in the future.
Jonathan CHM | 11-Jun-10 at 8:44 am | Permalink
The New Testament even demands us to put our love in God first. This is the commandment that Jesus ever conveyed to us that we have to love Him with all our hearts and all our minds.
Jonathan CHM | 12-Jun-10 at 8:42 am | Permalink
Prior to praying sinner’s prayer, a person has to repent from sinning, such as, continuing in worshipping idols and etc. Repentance is the foremost significance for the conversion to Christianity. Without repentance, a non-Christian might pray a hundred times sinner’s prayer, God would not listen to him since John 9:31, “(mentions that)…God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” Sinner’s prayer is only effective when a person fully repents from sinning, such as, discontinuing in worshipping idols and etc., and he then says sinner’s prayer, God would then come and dwell into his life.
When a person becomes a Christian through sinner’s prayer, he is a Christian even though he might sin in the future and he will never fall away for his promise. This is supported by 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as follows:
1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. IF ANY MAN’S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.”
If you have read the book of Romans, you would have discovered even Paul himself was struggling with sin. The following is the extract:
Romans 7:18-20, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.” Indeed, Paul did sin against God since Romans 7:19, “(mentions that) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.” Even though Paul did sin, Paul is still considered to be a Christian. As Paul himself could fall into sin, it implies that a person is still considered to be a Christian due to his initial acceptance of Jesus Christ to be his Personal Saviour through sinner’s prayer even though he might or will sin in the future.
Does this mean Christians should give way to sin? No, God forbids since John 14:15, “(mentions that) If ye love me, keep my commandments.” and the same is supported in John 15:10, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.”
Nevertheless, sinner’s prayer is the way to be born again since it demands a non-Christian to request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. However, once a person is converted, he has to obey God’s commandments. He might sin in the future and yet his salvation is permanent.
Child | 28-Jun-10 at 1:57 am | Permalink
If you believe in the same God, save your breathe. Don’t let satan blow this light out, God created us to lit up the darkness, not to put each other out. Be concern with the lost, not others! If all of you could quote the bible so well and use such arguments, why not use it to save the lost? Don’t you realize the persecution of churches is the beginning of end times? Why judge when you will be judged? Guys the lost are crying out for us! Your family your friends! Do not be a tool of the devil! In Jesus name!
Jonathan CHM | 01-Jul-10 at 8:23 am | Permalink
I agree that the Scripture mentions that Christians should not judge. However, 1 Corinthians 5:13 allows us to judge within our brothers and sister-in-Christ and it only disallows us to judge non-christians. The following is the extract: 1 Corinthians 5:13, “But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”
The same is supported in 1 Corinthians 6:2, “(that)Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”
Jonathan CHM | 13-Aug-10 at 10:31 am | Permalink
DOES THE BOOK OF ACTS SUPPORT THAT BELIEVING IN JESUS ATTRACTS IMMEDIATE RECEIPT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
1} Let’s meditate Acts 22:12-16 below:
Acts 22:12-16, “And one Ananias…came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive they sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized, and washed away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
From the above verses, it is easily to spot out that nothing is mentioned whether Saul had repented from sinning in persecuting Christians or he had confessed his sin or he had believed in Jesus or the Holy Spirit had come to him except the phrase, be baptized and washed away thy sins. Despite nothing is mentioned that is pertaining to the above factors that contributed to his salvation, it is irrational to conclude that he needed not to exercise any of these elements prior to his salvation. Similarly, it is irrational to conclude that he did not request for the Holy Spirit just simply giving the explanation that the above verses do not mention it. As the phrase, washed away thy sins, is mentioned in Acts 22:10 with the phrase, be baptized, it implies that baptism in the past was accompanied with sin cleansing.
2} Let’s meditate Acts 8:14-17 below:
Acts 8:14-17, “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, PRAYED FOR THEM,, THAT THEY MIGHT RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”
Nothing is mentioned in Acts 8:14-17 that the Samaria had believed the word of God except the phrase, had received. It is erroneous to use these verses to support that salvation could come about simply by receiving the word of God instead of believing. Thus, the absence of certain factors, such as, repentance of sin; confession of sin; and the requesting for the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:14-17, do not give any strong proof that they did not exercise prior to their conversion to Christianity. The phrase, had received, in Acts 8:14 implies that Samaria should have believed in Jesus at that time. Did they receive the Holy Spirit immediately after believing? No, they did not receive the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:14 until Acts 8:17, “(that mentions that)…laid they their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.” As there is an obvious gap between Acts 8:14 and Acts 8:17 in which they believed and yet the Holy Spirit was not with them, it implies that believing does not attract the immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. As the phrase, prayed for them, is mentioned in Acts 8:15 with the phrase, that they might receive the Holy Spirit, it implies that requesting for the receipt of the Holy Spirit is acceptable from the Scriptural point of view. As praying with the receipt of the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:15 should be associated with baptism, it implies baptism in the past should be accompanied with also praying with the receipt of the Holy Spirit in addition to sin cleansing as mentioned in Acts 22:10.
3} The apostles were told to Acts 1:4-5, “…be…assembled together…(and) should not depart from Jerusalem…(so as to) be baptized with Holy Ghost…” Did these apostles ask for the receipt of the Holy Ghost? In order to tackle this question, let’s meditate John 6:32-34 as below: John 6:32-34, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. THEN SAID THEY UNTO HIM, LORD EVERMORE GIVE US THIS BREAD.” The phrase, the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, in John 6:33 certainly refers to the Holy Spirit. The phrase, Then said they unto him Lord evermore give us this bread, in John 6:34 implies that the apostles did request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit and yet Jesus turned them down by saying, John 7:39, “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)” The same is mentioned in John 16:7 that the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at the absence of Jesus. The following is the extract: John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” The same is in Philemon 1:15, “(that) For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever.” Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit did not come to the Apostles even though they did ask Jesus in John 6:32-34 until the day of Pentecost.
4} Let’s examine Acts 8:26-37 below to determine whether these verses do support sinner’s prayer:
Acts 8:26-27, “And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise…And he arose, and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians…had come to Jerusalem for to worship…” Acts 8:37-38, “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and he eunuch; and he baptized him.”
Observe carefully the above verses and you would have discovered that none of the verses between Acts 8:26 and Acts 8:38 mention that the words, believe, and the phrase, the Holy Spirit came to the eunuch except the phrase, he baptized him. The absence of the word, believe, and the phrase, the Holy Spirit comes to eunuch, does not imply that he had not believed in Jesus and that the Holy Spirit did not come to him, The same that it is irrational to use Acts 8:26-38 to jump into conclusion that repentance and confession of sin and the requesting for the Holy Spirit are not necessary just because they are not stated among these verses. The phrase, had come to Jerusalem for to worship, in Acts 8:27, gives us the possible idea that he should have believed in Acts 8:27 or else there should not be any reason for him to travel for worship. The phrase, he baptized him, in Acts 8:38 gives us the idea that he should have received the Holy Spirit in Acts 8:38. Despite he had believed in Jesus when he was in Acts 8:27, he only proclaimed his belief that was followed by baptism in Acts 8:38. There is an obvious gap between Acts 8:27 and Acts 8:37 in which he believed and yet the Holy Spirit had not come to him and this could come to the conclusion that believing does not attract immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit.
As mentioned in Acts 22 above that sin cleansing has to be associated with baptism and that Acts 8:15 that praying for the Holy Spirit has to be associated with baptism. As the word, baptized, is mentioned in Acts 8:38 and that baptism is to be associated with sin cleansing and praying for the Holy Spirit, sin cleansing and praying for the Holy Spirit should have been exercised at the time of baptism even though they are not stated in these verses at all.
5} Let’s mediate the extracted verses from Acts 10 below:
Acts 10:1-2, “There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band…one that feared God…” Acts 10:30-32, “And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, A MAN STOOD BEFORE ME IN BRIGHT CLOTHING and said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard…Send therefore to…Peter…” Acts 10:25-26, “And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up I myself also am a man.” Acts 10:43-44, “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sin. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
Nothing is mentioned in Acts 10:1-26 that Cornelius had believed in Jesus except that Peter prevented him to fall down and worship him as mentioned in Acts 10:25-26. It is only mentioned in Acts 10:43-44 that the Holy Spirit came down upon him when he heard Peter that declared that whosoever believe in Jesus shall receive remission of sin. It is erroneous to use Acts 10:43-44 to jump into the conclusion that a non-Christian could be saved simply by hearing the words of God instead of through faith just because Acts 10:43-44 are not indicated that Cornelius believes except that he heard the words. The same is for repentance and confession of sin and the praying for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. The absence of all these words in Acts 10:1-44, does not imply that Cornelius did not do it.
6} Let’s meditate Acts 16:29-33 below:
Acts 16:29-33, “Then called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, and brought them out, and said, Sir, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway.”
The phrase, And they said Believe on the Lord, in Acts 16:31 refers undoubtedly to the preaching words from Paul and Silas to the keeper of the prison. However, nothing is mentioned in the subsequent verse that he believed in Jesus or the Holy Spirit had come to him except the phrase, was baptized. As nothing is mentioned that he believed in Jesus or the Holy Spirit had come to him, it does not imply that he had not been born again. The same that nothing is mentioned that he had repented and confessed his sins and even to request for the Holy Spirit, it is irrational to conclude that he did not do it.
7} Acts 19:2, “…HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED?…”
Nevertheless, it could come the conclusion that it is erroneous to extract any event from the book of Acts to comment that certain practices, such as, believing in Jesus; repentance and confession of sin; and praying for the receiving of the Holy Spirit, are not mentioned in that event, and immediately derive a conclusion that those practices are not necessary to be exercised in order to be born again.
It has been proved in Clauses 2 and 4 above that believing in Jesus does not necessarily attract immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit.
SALVATION IS THE WORK OF FAITH
In order to be saved, a person that believes in Jesus Christ has to be born again through receiving the Holy Spirit. It is irrational to support that a non-Christian that believes in Jesus will automatically be granted with the Holy Spirit since Acts 19:2, “…(enquire those people that believe in Jesus,) HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED?…” Furthermore, Romans 8:9 mentions that those that do not have the Spirit of Christ are not Christians at all. The following is the extract: Romans 8:9, “…if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
Salvation is truly the work of faith. When a non-Christian prays a sinner’s prayer, he has to exercise his faith throughout his praying. When he prays to confess his sin before God through sinner’s prayer, he has to believe that God has forgiven his sin immediately after his confession or else he would not expect to receive any forgiveness of sin from God. This is due to James 1:6-8, “(mentions that) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.” As the word, wavereth, is mentioned in James 1:6-8 with the phrase, let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord, it implies that a non-Christian, that does not believe that his sin has been forgiven immediately after sinner’s prayer, would not have his sin be forgiven. As his sin would not be forgiven if he does not believe that he has been forgiven immediately after sinner’s prayer, his sin would not be forgiven and that would not cause the Holy Spirit to enter into his body since John 9:31, “(mentions that)…God heareth not sinners…” The same is in praying for the receipt of the Holy Spirit, the same person must believe that he has already received the Holy Spirit after sinner’s prayer. Or else, his prayer is in vain and would not cause him to receive the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, faith has to be exercised throughout sinner’s prayer in order to cause a non-Christian to be born again.
Could a non-Christian mention that he believes in Jesus Christ and yet he does not believe that his sin has been forgiven and he also does not believe that the Holy Spirit has come into his body immediately after sinner’s prayer? Certainly, there is a question whether this non-Christian has believed in Jesus since he questions about whether his sin has been forgiven and the existence of the Holy Spirit in his body immediately after his sinner’s prayer.
Salvation does not depend upon emotion but faith. A non-Christian must believe that his sin has been forgiven and that he has received the Holy Spirit without relying upon feeling. With his faith immediately after sinner’s prayer, he would then be born again.
RELIANCE UPON EMOTION TOWARDS TO EXISTENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Reliance upon emotion towards the existence of the Holy Spirit within our bodies to determine whether we are born again is not scriptural due to Job 9:2 and John 3:5-8 provides the truth we could not sense the existence of the Holy Spirit. The following are the explanations:
i} Job 9:2, “…God” Job 9:11, “Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.” As the phrase, he goeth…and…passeth on, is mentioned in Job 9:11 with the phrase, I perceive him not, it implies that we could never sense the existence of God.
ii) John 3:5-8, “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. THE WIND BLOWETH WHERE IT LISTETH, and THOU HEARST THE SOUND THEREOF, BUT CANST NOT TELL WHENCE IT COMETH, and WHITHER IT GOETH: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Let’s analyse John 3:5-8 in two different approaches as follows:
a} Let’s relates the word, wind, in John 3:5-8 to be the Holy Spirit and the phrase, the wind bloweth where it listeth, in John 3:8 would turn up to be the Holy Spirit goes as He wishes. The phrase, thou hearst the sound thereof, in John 3:8 can be interpreted as you hear the Holy Spirit speaks to you whenever He guides you in truth or whenever He informs you that you have committed sin or etc. The phrase, thou…canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth, in John 3:8 implies that we cannot tell when the Holy Spirit has come and where He has gone to. We could sense His existence only if we could know when He comes and where He goes within our bodies. As it is mentioned that we could not tell where the Holy Spirit comes and goes, it implies that we could not sense the existence of the Holy Spirit.
b} Let’s interpret the word, wind in John 3:5-8 in a straightforward way that has no connection with the Holy Spirit. The phrase, The wind bloweth where it listeth, in John 3:8 implies that the wind blows as it wishes. The phrase, thou hearst the sound thereof, in John 3:8 could be interpreted as we are aware of the wind by the external environment, such as, the sound of the wind; the coolness of our bodies; the movement of the external objects, i.e. tree & etc. The phrase, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth, in John 3:8 implies that we can never have any unusual sensation about the movement of wind within our bodies that drives us crazily. The reason is simply that wind can never penetrate into our bodies & to move within our bodies. The phrase, so is every one that is born of the Spirit, in John 3:8 implies that it happens the same to the Holy Spirit.
As proved above that we could not sense God, our prayer through requesting for the receipt of the Holy Spirit, must rely merely on faith instead of depending upon whether there is any emotion within our bodies to determine the existence of the Holy Spirit within our bodies.
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD AND HE IS ALSO GOD
There are many instances to prove that Jesus is God Himself:
1} Human beings and angels worship Jesus Christ. The following are the extracts: Hebrews 1:6, “…firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”; Matthew 2:1-2, “…there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for WE have seen his star in the east, and are COME TO WORSHIP HIM.”; Matthew 2:11, “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him…”: Matthew 8:2, “And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt,…”; Matthew 9:18, “…there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him..”; Matthew 15:25, “Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.”; Matthew 20:20, “Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him…”; Matthew 28:9, “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.”
For instance, if Jesus Christ is not God, worshipping Jesus contradicts the Ten Commandments as mentioned in Exodus 20 and even Luke 4:8, “….Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”
2} Jesus did miracles, but the surrounding audience glorified God and this implies that Jesus Christ is God Himself. The following are the extracts: Luke 5:24-25, “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God. “; Luke 13:12-13, “And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.”; Luke 13:17, “…and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.”; Luke 17:15, “And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God.”; Luke 18:42-43, “And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God…”
3} Jesus is God and is even obvious in John 1. The following are the extracts: John 1:1-3, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” John 1:10-11, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
4} Jesus even admitted Himself to be God. John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” John 8:27, “They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.”
5} God even called Jesus Himself to be God. The following is the extract: Hebrews 1:8, “But unto the Son he saith, THY THRONE, O GOD, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”; Isaiah 9:6-7, “For unto us a child is born, UNTO US A SON IS GIVEN: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: AND HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counseller, THE ALMIGHTY GOD…”
6} Jesus Christ is our Saviour and yet Titus 1:3, “(mentions)…God our Saviour;”, it implies that Jesus Himself is God since this verse links up God to be our Saviour even though Jesus Christ was the one that died for our sins.
7} Jesus Christ has neither beginning nor ending and the same is for God. The following are the extracts: Hebrews 7:3, “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”; John 8:56-58, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”; John 1:1-3, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…”; Proverb 8:22-24, “The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.”
8} Jesus Christ is our Lord and yet the name of the Lord is God and this indirectly refers Jesus Christ as God.
The following are the extracts that refer Jesus as the Lord: 2 Peter 2:20, “Lord and Jesus Christ…”; 2 Peter 3:18, “.Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”;; Hebrews 1:8, “But to the Son he says…”Hebrews 1:10, “And, ‘You, Lord…”; Philemon 1:3, “…the Lord Jesus Christ.”; Titus 1:3, “…the Lord Jesus Christ.”; Titus 1:4, “…the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.” Matthew 8:5, “…Jesus..a centurion beseeching him, and saying, Lord…”; Matthew 8:25, “And his disciples came to him…saying, Lord…”; Mark 16:19, “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat as the right hand of God.”; Luke 2:11, “…Christ the Lord.”; Luke 6:5, “And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.”; Luke 13:15, “The Lord then answered him…”
The following are the extracts that the Lord is God: Isaiah 30:18, “…for the Lord is a God of judgment…”; Isaiah 33:22, “…the LORD s our King; he will save us.”; Isaiah 45:3, “…I, the Lord…am the God of Israel.”; Jeremiah 32:27, “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all fresh…”; Habakuk 3:18, “…the LORD…the God of my salvation”; Deuteronomy 4:35, “…the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”; Psalm 33:12, “…God is LORD…”; Psalm 118:27, “God is the LORD…”; Psalm 144:15, “…whose God is the LORD.”; Psalm 18:31, “For who is God save the LORD? Or who is roc save our God?”
9} Jesus created the Universe and God was the one that created the Universe as mentioned in the Book of Genesis and all these point to the fact that Jesus is God Himself:
The following are the extracts that Jesus was the creator of this Universe: Hebrews 1:1-2, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;” Hebrews 1:8, “But to he Son he says…” Hebrews 1:10, “And: ‘You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”; John 1:7-11, “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”
10} Jesus Christ was with the Holy Spirit since birth instead of at the time of His baptism with John the Baptist. Matthew 1:20, “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”; Luke 1:34-35, “Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES FROM GOD
1 John 4:12, “No one has seen God at any time…God abides in us.” 1 John 4:13, “By this we know that we abide in him and he is in us, because HE HAS GIVE US OF HIS SPIRIT.”; Numbers 24:2, “…the Spirit of God came upon him.”; Ezekiel 37:1, Isaiah 4:13-14, “…the Spirit of the LORD…”; Proverbs 1:23, “…I will pour out my spirit unto you…”; Nehemiah 9:20, “You also gave Your good spirit to instruct them…”; Isaiah 44:3, “…I will pour my spirit upon thee…”; Isaiah 59:21, “…saith the LORD, my spirit that is upon thee…”; Matthew 3:16, “…the spirit of God…”; John 15:26, “But when the COMFORTER is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER…”; 1 Peter 1:11, Romans 8:9, “…Spirit of Christ…”
THE APPEARANCE OF JESUS CHRIST
The first coming and His next coming will be in physical form absolutely since 1 John 4:2, “(mentions that)…Every spirit that confesseth that JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH is of God:”
Even though the coming of Jesus Christ will be in physical form, he could appear in spiritual form too. The following are the explanations: The phrase, Spirit of Christ, in Romans 8:9 and 1 Peter 1:11 gives us absolute proves that Jesus Christ could be in spiritual form. Another proof that Jesus could be in spiritual as well as physical form could be located in Luke 24:33-37 in which Jesus appeared suddenly in midst of the disciples and caused them to have the fear that He was ghost. Jesus Christ should have been with them in the spiritual form prior to His sudden appearance in the midst of them to cause them to have the fear. The following are the extracts: Luke 24:33, “And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,” Luke 24:36-37, “And AS THEY THUS SPAKE, JESUS HIMSELF STOOD IN THE MIDST OFTHEM, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. BUT THEY WERE TERRIFIED AND AFFRIGHTED, AND SUPPOSED THAT THEY HAD SEEN A SPIRIT.”
UNIT OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT
Does a person invite the Holy Spirit as well as God into his body by praying merely to receive Jesus Christ as his Personal Saviour? John 14:10-12 spelt out the unity between God and Jesus. The following is the extract: John 14:10-12, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me,…Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me…” As the phrase, I am in the Father, and the Father in me, is mentioned in John 14:10-12, it implies togetherness between Jesus Christ and God and that they could never be separated. The phrase, I am in the Father and the Father is in me, in John 14:10-12 strongly opposes the possibility of the separation between God and Jesus and it also rejects the likeliness that God might not be in Jesus and vice versa. The same are supported by the following verses: John 8:29, “And he that sent me is with me…”; John 10:38, “…the Father is in me, and I in him.”; John 14:20, “…I am in my Father, and ye in me…”; John 16:32, “…I am not alone, because the Father is with me.” As proved above that God and Jesus Christ could never be separated, that implies that a person, that prays to receive Jesus Christ into his body, receives God into his body too.
The unity of God the Father, the son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit could be found in the following verses: John 17:22-23, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one…”; John 17:21,”…thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us….”; 1 John 5:7-8, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, THE FATHER THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” As the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus Christ are united into one and they can never be separated, that make it possible for one to mention that there is only one God even though there are three persons since none of them could be separated from each other and that the three have been viewed as one as a whole number.
As the Holy Spirit, God and the Holy Spirit could never be separated and they are united into one, a non-Christian, that prays to receive Jesus Christ into his body, receives the Holy Spirit and God simultaneously.
Jonathan CHM | 28-Aug-10 at 4:15 pm | Permalink
Does Acts 19:1-9 (Christians in Ephesus ) give a strong proof that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit?
Let’s meditate Acts 19:1-9:
Acts 19:1-9, “…at Corinth , Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus : and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, HAVE YE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”
The phrase, finding certain disciples, in Acts 19:1 does not give any strong proof whether these disciples were Jesus’ disciples or John at the time of their dialogue. There were a number of possibilities that can be viewed for the phrase, certain disciples, as mentioned in Acts 19:1:
a) it could be that there were Jesus’ disciples and they did not know about the existence of the Holy Spirit and yet they did receive water baptism from John;
b) it could be that there were John’s disciples and yet lately believed and followed Jesus;
c) it could be that there were John’s disciples and had not believed in Jesus and yet lately followed Jesus:
d) it could be that there were neither Jesus’ nor John’s disciples, yet had just converted to disciples not long ago; or etc.
In view of the above possibilities, it is hard to jump into the conclusion using Acts 19:1 that these disciples were John’s disciples.
Whether these people were John’s disciples or not, were not significant. The main thing that needs to be highlighted is that these people should not be questioned, Acts 19:2, “..Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?” This is by virtue of if these were John’s disciples and they had believed in Jesus, the Holy Spirit would have come immediately upon them at the time of their believes even though they only received John’s baptism and they did not know the Holy Spirit, with the assumption that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. The reason is simply the knowledge that they acquired (whether they knew the Holy Spirit or whether they received only John’s baptism0 would not affect his salvation with the assumption that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit. As the phrase, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed, is mentioned in Acts 19:2, it gives an uncertainty that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit.
Some might argue that certain parts of the book of Acts were transitional period for the receiving of the Holy Spirit. However, the transitional period should have been ended at the time of Pentecost since John 16:7 mentions the receipt of the Holy Spirit was after the resurrection of Jesus.
Those people that insist not to request for the receipt of the Holy Spirit while they are on earth with the assumption that believing attracts immediate receipt of the Holy Spirit, would regret eternally what if they have discovered their past knowledge was wrong and that Jesus would speak to them that He does not know Him at end time as mentioned in Matthew 7:23.
Disciples in current context. Acts 11:26, “(mentions that)…the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch .” As the phrase, the disciples, is mentioned in Acts 11:26 with the word, Christians, it implies that the word, disciple, and the word, Christian, can be interchangeable.