Woke up and saw this post on ping.sg. Firstly, I LOVE what this guy wrote. Really. I did. Now, I know why I turned my back on Christianity (as a religion). And of course what this post highlighted also helped.
Firstly, I used to go to CHC. I haven’t gone to church for some time. I haven’t read the Bible for some time. Haven’t really prayed except when some of the people I love want to say grace before a meal or when a friend is in need. So maybe I’m not the most qualified person like the gentleman who blogs here to talk about CHC and the prosperity message that everyone is so hung up about.
But damn if I’m not going to say something to defend CHC.
I love his kungfu. Really. I do. First, he says ‘… sermon was going to be the filth that is the prosperity gospel again as is the norm at City Harvest Church.’ then he says ‘… pray for Kong Hee to wake up from his delusion, repent, and start preaching God’s Word instead of the prosperity gospel.’ and then to show us what a nice guy he is ‘You are putting words into my mouth — I did not in any manner condemn Kong Hee nor judge him or the church that he leads.’
I’m being a bit hypocritical here. I have written in such a way on this blog before but this guy is the master.
What is the meaning of condemn? What is the meaning of repent? If you tell a guy he needs to repent haven’t you already judged him.
Jedi mind tricks. The force is strong in this one.
But how does this have anything to do with defending CHC. Nothing. I was digressing and I apologize.
City Harvest Church does place a strong emphasis on the prosperity message. Is it the only message? No. It isn’t. Is it the message that appears at every sermon? Well, I haven’t done a statistical analysis on the notes I have taken during the time I was a member, but I would be able to agree that it is a message that is kinda always mentioned.
Is that a bad thing?
No really. Is it a bad thing?
There are many ways to say the same thing. The first way is this.
You are a sinner. Of no fault of yours, you were born a sinner and you are condemned to this bloody terrible place called Hell. And since you are a Singaporean used to aircon, you are screwed. Cos Hell is hot. HOT. And if you have blabber problems, whahaha, you are really screwed, cos hell is condemnation with no relief. NO RELIEF. Get it? But don’t worry, cos if you repent and accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you will be saved. You won’t go to hell. You get to go to heaven! Don’t you want heaven? You can get it. But remember only JC can give it to you. Like the brother here said, work towards your salvation with ‘fear and trembling’.
Pause. You do realized that being a Christian just because I don’t really want to go to hell and I fear some big boy in the sky is almost like being a Christian just because I want to be rich.
Same Difference. Both reasons cheapens Christianity and any sort of relationship one could have with God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit.
There is the other way to say it.
Yup, let’s ignore for a moment this whole inconvenient notion that somehow we are all born sinners. Look at your life now. Are you happy with it? Don’t you wish that there was more meaning to your life. More purpose. Don’t you wish to be able to afford the cost in taking care of your elderly parents. Want to give the best to your children? Want to live life with greater fulfillment and satisfaction instead of instant gratification. Want to travel and see the world? (honestly, nothing wrong with wanting to do that. It isn’t crass or materialistic. If God really created such a beautiful world, I think he would perfectly understand the desire in us to see it) Christianity can give that to you. And so much more. God created us so that we would be able to experience life together with him (or her), share in its joys of exploring, discovery and creating, but things kinda got fucked along the way, but God is here to help us make everything right again. Do you want his help? Jesus came so that we can have life abundantly.
I know some Christians argue that the verse is talking about eternal life. But really, God just wants us to suffer in this one until we die and go to heaven and then we start enjoying from then on? I thought we were born again in this world, when we repent and accept our salvation. Babies yes. But isn’t the born again life starting here? Sure, we need to grow. Sure, we would need to suffer and be tested. But shouldn’t the good life start here. How small your God is if it can only happen when you die and go to heaven. But of course, I agree that the good life can start without being rich in all that is called materialism. But lusting after material wealth isn’t the same as wanting to be prosperous.
The great mistake when commenting on the prosperity message is assuming that it is always about having enough for your car, condo, country club blah blah blah. What arrogance! Do you actually believe when we want more, we all want ‘your more’. Some people just want to be able to study. To have that next meal. To take care of the health costs of their sick relatives. To indulge a bit. To eat nice chocolate. To give that present to a friend they really love.
The prosperity message is preached because there is an understanding that some people can’t even meet certain material needs or enjoy what a lot of us take for granted. Yes, there is nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy more. Hell, there is nothing wrong with wanting to feed a guy before telling him how he can’t live on bread alone.
But you see, no one, no one who condemns City Harvest Church and its prosperity message ever ever talks about the next thing. Yes. The next thing. You can do two things when you are rich (actually a lot of things, but for argument’s sake, I’m simplifying).
1. You can hoard it.
2. You can share it.
Sorry to disappoint you all, but CHC doesn’t advocate 1. In fact, they advocate number 2 to a fault. The leaders in the church (or at least those I know) always talk about having more so that we can be a conduit on this earth to give to others.
It is through us that we can bless others.
The prosperity message is a one-two, left-hand jab, right-hand upper cut move.
Another thing. The blogger talks about how Pastor Kong took the verses out of context. I’m no expert in bible translation, but I think the King James Version came before the English Standard Version.
Which doesn’t really mean a thing.
I just wanted to point out that we can argue all we want about what a verse means when one translation uses a different word compared to another translation and it would be pointless. At least to me. Because I mean, aren’t there other things to consider. Like the source. And how the actual word used in the source was rich in meanings and it was up to the translator’s interpretation that we get the word in the translated version.
So to imply someone is abusing a verse just because the other translated version uses a different word is a bit disingenuous.
Or course, that doesn’t mean the blogger’s argument that the verse was taken out of context is invalid.
Finally about the sermons being no different from self-improvement talks. That is false. Of course, things might have changed now and what he said has validity. Anyway, I couldn’t find the mentioned sermon on the site, so I’ll just use what I know from the past to say this.
Setting goals, achieving them, realizing our best in finances, marriage, relationships and the works is very much relevant to our Christian walk. Our Christian walk is not just about our relationship with Jesus Christ. It is important of course, if not the most important thing. It isn’t just the only thing.
Simple example albeit not a perfect analogy.
Say I love my gf. A lot. But our relationship would be a little stale don’t you think if its spent just walking on the beach, the two of us, just talking about our relationship.
But what if I bring her into other aspects of my life which is also important. Like my career. She plays a part because I try to let her understand the decisions I make. I consult her for the decisions I’m going to make. But I don’t always run back to her. She doesn’t need to be part of every single decision I make. Sometimes, I can be decisive and make some on my own. After all, I got the brains, the training, the reasoning, the knowledge and hopefully the wisdom to do so.
To say our Christian walk is one and not the other is to bring a false dichotomy. Our Christian walk is everything about our life. And how God can be part of it. But God being part of it doesn’t mean every single thing is deferred to God.
A terrible example to use. After the tsunami, a friend asked me why God didn’t do something. Why didn’t he intervene?
And I asked, why should God do anything?
God made us right? He gave us intelligence. He gave us will. He gave us understanding. He gave us the ability to make choices.
The tsunami’s damage could have been mitigated if some places had better warning systems. But no investment was made. Humans made the choice to do nothing about something they had the power to do.
So, how is a church leader teaching us practical steps in self-improvement bringing God into our lives and how is that improving our Christian walk?
Well, in one way, we are learning from a person anointed by Christ. I think there is some power in that.
Secondly, when we live our life well, it is a testament to God, especially when we acknowledge that God had a part to play. But to live it well, we need to know how. Right?
Thirdly, and I’m using what I learned about marriage from CHC here, you got to be able to do both the practical and the spiritual. From what I know, the leaders from CHC always say that in the end, God has to come into the picture.
For example, marriage is not between two people but three. Me, my spouse and God. We were taught how to bring God into the marriage. However, we were also taught practical steps in making the marriage work.
Like:
1. If I stay back after work, I will always inform my wife my whereabouts.
2. Even if there are people in the office, and I claim I’m not attracted to the female colleague, I work where the door is open, the blinds are up.
3. If I have to travel, I bring a male companion instead of a female one. If a female one needs to come, I try to bring three people along and arrange such that different sexes do not share room.
Practical steps. Why does a church need to teach this?
Because it is about accountability. And how accountability has to be part of our life. If we can’t be accountable in stuff like this, how can we be accountable to God.
Take what happens when you get into the car. You believe that God will protect you. You even prayed. But you still wear a seatbelt. It is protection. Practical protection.
You need both. To do the practical stuff and the spiritual stuff. Both has a part.
So, our relationship with God is the most important thing. And we got to work on it. But to work solely on it is a little off. We work on other aspects of our lives and always make sure that God is a part of it. So while, we may not be spending most of our time directly working on the relationship with God, by bringing him into every aspect of our lives, we are indirectly strengthening it.
Like, instead of just talking to my gf about our relationship and how it can be better and always just being only with her, both of us take up a hobby together with our friends. We both learn a skill and while not exactly working on the relationship directly, the relationship grows.
To end, listen to the above mentioned blogger’s advice.
“I shall also pray that you shall learn to discern and seek to study the Bible and learn what God teaches about the Christian life, instead of listening to the apostasy many teachers now falsely teach.”
Remember though, teachers come in all forms, and the pulpit isn’t just in a church.
A blog can be a pulpit too.
Christ | 07-Jan-08 at 3:33 pm | Permalink
“I agree that the good life can start without being rich in all that is called materialism. But lusting after material wealth isn’t the same as wanting to be prosperous.” really I like this phrases in your article because its agreeable and I have gone through your whole article starting for your woke up and its great to read and know some thing new about the CHC.
Estee | 07-Jan-08 at 4:01 pm | Permalink
Hey Ian, thanks for sharing I did once go to CHC too. I left for many reasons, but all I must say is that I love CHC still. I think they are an awesome church and doing a lot to change the spiritual landscape in Singapore (for the better). They also do a lot of social work and play a major role in community development.
We can all start pointing fingers on which church is preaching unsound doctrine etc, but seriously, there isn’t once right or best church. All churches should worship Jesus and know that no one can receive salvation through their own doing, but because of the grace of God.
Why waste time bitching about how bad a church is? Some churches are more suitable for a certain kind of person and we all need to find out own niches in our church. Just because my father doesn’t attend cell group of raise his hands in worship or give that much money to his church, doesnt mean he loves God less than someone who gives the church a whole lot of money.
Yes of course giving can be a good way to quantify commitment and love, but there sure are others.
I think before i, or anyone judge, we should take the plank out of our own eyes before we pick the speck of dirt out of someone else’s.
I still support city harvest in what they do, they are a great church and continue to have a positive impact on society, May God continue to use them.
iantimothy | 07-Jan-08 at 4:16 pm | Permalink
Hey Estee, thanks for sharing about your own experiences.
About the father part, when I first joined CHC, I invited my father along, and I was asking ‘why can’t my father see how awesome this place is’.
And then I realized what you said - there are different kinds of church with different ways of ministering to their members.
Sicarii | 07-Jan-08 at 6:11 pm | Permalink
Ah, such a nice subtle way to call me a hypocrite.
In the first place, Ian, do you know what the prosperity gospel is, and how much harm it is doing? Instead of teaching godliness, it is teaching that God is a vending machine and going to church and giving is like trying to strike lottery.
The example you gave is not what the prosperity gospel is teaching.
Teaching the prosperity gospel is akin to helping people build their faith on shifting sands and not on the solid rock that’s God’s word!
I also find it funny that you say that turning to God and not wanting to go to hell is cheapening the relationship between oneself and God. In which case, what say you about Jesus Christ’s promise of eternal life if you believe upon His name?
I’ll tell you what is cheapening the relationship! That Jesus Christ suffered and died for our sins so that we can have the material things that our hearts desire?! That’s what the prosperity gospel is teaching.
Anyhow, I don’t expect that everyone will agree or disagree with me. What I wrote is my personal opinion, and you have been free to disagree.
Shalom Aleichem.
iantimothy | 07-Jan-08 at 8:29 pm | Permalink
Firstly, whose prosperity gospel are you talking about? I am pretty sure that there are many variants even within CHC.
The one I learned is not about treating God like a vending machine and where giving is like trying to strike the lottery.
I shall not go into the prosperity gospel I have learned from CHC in this comment.
But I would like to say this. CHC is a big church. Sometimes things aren’t consistent throughout the church.
I was blessed to have a good cell group leader. The things we should learn cannot be learned in one sermon, so the cell group leader plays a part in reinforcing what we need to learn for our spiritual growth.
I won’t be surprised if some cell group leaders may have given a wrong twist to the prosperity message but I do not believe that is something CHC is systematically guilty of.
Turning to God just because I don’t want to go to hell is most definitely cheapening the relationship. It is like going out with a girl just because I don’t want to be beaten up by her older brother.
Turning to God just because I want material things is also most definitely cheapening the relationship. It is like going out with a girl just because her father is rich.
Here is what to me doesn’t cheapen the relationship. I turn to God because I love him. I love him not because I want to love him so I don’t go to hell. I love him because I want to love him. Period. If I love him just for my salvation, the salvation just becomes another thing in a market exchange. My love exchanged for salvation.
I want to love him because I want to hang out with God throughout eternity. Cos I think that a God who created this earth and the universe must be a pretty cool dude and I just want to be with him.
I love him because he sent his son to die for me. He paid the price of sin for us. I love him because he did all that and doesn’t stick it in my face. He doesn’t say, ‘Look, dude, you owe me’. NO!!! I want to love him because he says, ‘dude, I settled the bill, come, let’s go hang out, but its cool if you wanna do your own thing’.
I understand that if I do my own thing, there are consequences, and that is hell. But it shouldn’t be because of hell that I go to hang out with God. It should be because God is already so cool that it doesn’t make sense not to be with him.
If I want to have a relationship with God and accept Jesus Christ’s gift of eternal life it is because having eternal life in heaven is the only way to be with a cool dude like God. Not because I want to avoid a hot, sweaty, smelly place with the wannabe Lucifer.
Simply put - I want to accept salvation so that I can continue loving God and be in his presence.
Not love God so that I can get salvation and skip hell.
And you know something. God desires the best for us. I believe that. It isn’t always material. Well, not for all of us. Some of us can handle material wealth. Some of us can’t. God knows. Jesus died for our sins not so we can have the material things we desire, but so God can bless us with what he desires for us to have be it material, spiritual, friends …
The prosperity message is more subtle than your vending machine-lottery analogy. Of course, I’m also guilty of bad analogies.
iantimothy | 07-Jan-08 at 8:40 pm | Permalink
In a way, I don’t invite you for the party because you will bring booze and hot babes.
I invited you so that I can hang out with you and I accept that hot babes and booze are probably going to be at the party if you come but I don’t care because it’s all about hanging out with you. It just so happens that because you are so cool, if you come to the party, the booze and babes will come.
And I know that. I accept that. I might even make plans for that. Forgive me, but I might even look forward to that. And when the booze and babes come, forgive me, but I’m sure not going to deny myself fun together with them and you.
But if you come and say no booze, no babes, I’m still cool with that no matter how much I might have looked forward to it. Cos you are here.
And if you tell me that let’s ditch the party and just go for a nice cup of coffee, I’ll take that too.
Cos it’s all about the dude.
Tommy | 07-Jan-08 at 11:21 pm | Permalink
Well, whatever you are writing above is going round and round back to zero.
Hmmm…nvm. It doesn’t matter. Everyone has their own opinion. But at least you spoke out.
iantimothy | 08-Jan-08 at 12:14 am | Permalink
Hahaha. Thanks Tommy although I don’t think it is going round and round back to zero. I think the path is a bit more convoluted.
But hey, I get your point.
Would love to hear your opinion though.
Sicarii | 08-Jan-08 at 1:00 am | Permalink
You’re more against the prosperity gospel than you initially thought, Ian.
Good for you!
And I agree with what you said about loving God and that’s why we should be desiring to be with Him. We also should bear in mind that without God loving us first, it’ll be impossible for us to love Him in return.
The danger of the prosperity gospel is that it doesn’t teach the love and fear of God. People go to church and turn to God only so that their material needs are met. It elevates gifts above the Giver, who is God.
Shalom Aleichem.
Daniel Chew | 11-Jan-08 at 12:07 am | Permalink
Actually, Ian, when you deride the Gospel as a hell insurance policy, what you are actally saying is that you think you (and many other people) do not deserve to go to hell. In other words, you think you are perfectly fine and good and in fact, given heaven and hell, you should go to heaven.
Such being the case, I would like to challenge you to defend your assumption of your basic goodness. Prove that any person, or at least you, deserve to go to heaven, and/or don’t deserve to go to hell.
iantimothy | 11-Jan-08 at 11:57 am | Permalink
Actually, I think you have misunderstood me. I would be the first person to say I deserve to go to hell based on my own merits (or rather lack of merits).
It is only by the grace of God that anyone of us get the chance to heaven.
When I deride the Gospel as a hell insurance policy, I’m not saying that I think I do not deserve to go to hell. You are saying that for me. No thanks for that.
I deride people’s acceptance of the Gospel and their ‘belief’ in God when they use it solely as a hell insurance policy.
Am I in a position to say every Christian does that. No. Am I in a position to say that some ‘Christians’ do that. Yes.
The difference to me is this and I hope you are intelligent (or maybe wise) enough to catch the subtle distinction.
1. I am afraid of something (i.e. hell) and then I engage in the act of loving and following God because I know that by loving and following God I can’t get out of hell. In this sense, my ‘faith’ is only to escape hell.
2. I love and follow God because of who he is and what he represents. I love him for the only reason of wanting to love him. Because of me loving and following him, by his grace I get into heaven. In this sense, my faith is just so I get can closer to God.
I hope that you wouldn’t be blinded by your need to challenge everyone (or maybe just me) who you think is filled with pride and see no need for God that you cannot see the distinction I am making.
Daniel Chew | 11-Jan-08 at 6:32 pm | Permalink
Ok, I have re-read the post and the comments, and it seemed I have misunderstood you. Yet, I do not see the rationale behind all your convoluted argumentations, which seem purposely ambiguous.
With regards to yourself, care to share why you left the faith?
iantimothy | 11-Jan-08 at 10:32 pm | Permalink
“…convoluted argumentations which seem purposely ambiguous…”
Maybe it is convoluted because:
1. Your mind can’t wrap around the notion that maybe not every argument can be nicely separated into a ‘for’ and ‘against’.
2. This is a blog post which I’m using as a jotter book for my thoughts and not an essay.
But I think while I may be long winded and despite the points made above, I think if you take your head out wherever you are sticking it, you will know what I’m clearly saying.
And about your other comment, why are you trying to be difficult?
That post clearly shows that I’m trying to reconcile everything I have learned in science with what I have learned in church.
To save you time going back to the post to re-read it, here is the paragraph:
“Of course, there are people who want the best of both worlds. They want to believe in a god and also want to reconcile that belief with science. I am one such person. Personally, I don’t believe there is any contradiction between Creationism and Darwinism because I do not subscribe to the notion that the Bible is a complete work that contains the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Like how a plant grows through the planting of the seed by the gardener, god could have created us by laying that seed which through the process of evolution, things have come to be.”
So it is like this - I try to understand everything using my own reasoning while trying to reconcile everything I have learned from the sciences and from church (i.e. bible, sermons …) with some occasional shaking of the fist at God.
Daniel Chew | 12-Jan-08 at 2:14 am | Permalink
Ian:
I am not trying to be difficult. I am enquiring into your source of authority or your epistemological basis. I think your comment is revealing as to one possible reason why you reject Christianity. You have a false sense of security as to the truthfulness and validity of your senses, and trust Man (more accurately yourself) more than God. After all, you did say:
‘I try to understand everything using my own reasoning while trying to reconcile everything I have learned from the sciences and from church’
So, what make you so certain of the truthfulness of everything you have learned from the sciences (or the Arts too)? After all, just because science is able to make our lives better does not mean that ALL that calls itself science is in fact truth. Just look at the various errors and hoaxes that call themselves ’science’ at one time or another in history (ie Piltdown Man, Embryonic Recapitulation, Vestigal Organs, Peppered moths etc.).
And btw, I am working in the scientific research industry, so I am not agaist science per se, but against the fairy tales that are falsely called science and are believed by humanists (as a matter of faith).
iantimothy | 12-Jan-08 at 10:07 am | Permalink
Well, firstly, I don’t believe in the truthfulness of everything in science. Neither do I believe everything I learned from the church.
Trying to reconcile both doesn’t mean I have to believe totally in either.
Secondly, your reason why I rejected Christianity is wrong. I would try to explain why you are wrong but I believe it would be to no avail.
Daniel Chew | 13-Jan-08 at 1:41 am | Permalink
Well, please do so. There are only a few reasons I can think of why a person, especially one brought up in the faith, would leave Christianity, and definitely waking up one day with a sudden irrational desire to do so is not one of them.
iantimothy | 13-Jan-08 at 2:39 pm | Permalink
Since there are only a few reasons, why don’t you list them?
Daniel Chew | 13-Jan-08 at 10:07 pm | Permalink
Well, if you want to know:
Falling into sins like homosexuality or fornication, awed by humanistic/other religious interpretation of knowledge like the “sciences”, rebellion against parents, finding it boring, want to appear “cool”, stumbled by hypocrites; these are some of the usual ones that I know of
iantimothy | 14-Jan-08 at 10:54 am | Permalink
How totally predictable reasons to give.
asmine | 14-Jan-08 at 6:35 pm | Permalink
hey ian, Whatever is it, Do love God &draw closer to Him because he is a great God
Anyway, To be frank, Kong Hee is a great pastor God had sent to CityHarvestChurch, or else do you think Cityharvest can be one of the greatest church in Singapore?
I won’t say you’re wrong, because i do understand different people do have different views/thinking. But one thing, no one is perfect accept JesusChrist our Lord. AMEN!
God bless you!
stillhaventfound.org | 15-Jan-08 at 1:46 am | Permalink
Hi Ian.
Do share with us why you’ve stopped attending church. From what I read, I think you still believe in God and maybe Jesus but maybe not too keen in institutional Christianity? Maybe I’m wrong. But do share with us.
G’day my old friend Daniel. I see you’re still at it strong
Ha…
Take care ya all!
evolution scientist | 16-Jan-08 at 10:57 pm | Permalink
And here We see Exhibit A putting up an argument and Exhibit B Sicarii trying to impose his own idea of a “GOD”. Well thank god, I won’t be going to either of your heavens.
iantimothy | 17-Jan-08 at 12:18 am | Permalink
Hey ‘evolution scientist’ … you say it like we care. I don’t care where you’re going. Just have fun there. And send me a postcard.
thomsonview | 24-Jan-08 at 11:56 pm | Permalink
A favorite term in the Word of Faith movement is “positive confession.” It refers to the Word of Faith teaching that words have creative power. What you say, Word of Faith teachers claim, determines everything that happens to you. Your confessions, especially the favors you demand of God, must all be stated positively and without wavering. Then God is required to answer. Thus God’s ability to bless us supposedly hangs on our faith. James 4:13-16 clearly contradicts this teaching, “Come now, you who say, Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that. But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.”
Far from stressing the importance of wealth, the Bible warns against pursuing it. Believers, especially leaders in the church (1 Timothy 3:3), are to be free from the love of money (Hebrews 13:5). Love of money leads to all kinds of evil (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus warned, “Beware and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions” (Luke 12:15). In sharp contrast to the Word Faith’s gospel’s emphasis on gaining money and possessions in this life, Jesus said “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal” (Matthew 6:19). The irreconcilable contradiction between prosperity teaching gospel and the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is best summed up in the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:24, “You cannot serve God and riches.
iantimothy | 25-Jan-08 at 11:46 am | Permalink
Like I’ve said many times, wanting to be prosperous does not equal to love of money.
If money is the ends, then yup, maybe something is terribly wrong.
But money can be the means to an end. It isn’t the only means, but it can be a mightily helpful one.
You cannot serve God and riches, but you can most definitely serve God with your riches. Can you serve God better?
That’s arguable. I think its not so much better, but different.
Agagooga | 25-Jan-08 at 2:24 pm | Permalink
http://gssq.blogspot.com/2007/01/vist-to-cash-harvest-cult-i-went-to.html
A visit to Cash Harvest Cult
iantimothy | 25-Jan-08 at 2:55 pm | Permalink
Hey, I read this post before. The funny thing is the same thing can be happening but people will have different perspectives on it.
Really depends on your internal beliefs, values and principles.
But that post is one harsh post.
Agagooga | 27-Jan-08 at 2:35 pm | Permalink
Just because people have different perspectives does not mean that all perspectives are equally justified.
iantimothy | 27-Jan-08 at 3:27 pm | Permalink
True. What makes the one you shared justified?
Agagooga | 28-Jan-08 at 2:28 am | Permalink
The justifications are outlined in the post.
iantimothy | 28-Jan-08 at 11:23 am | Permalink
The cunning justifications, impeccable logic, plausible reasons could be an after the fact rationalization of what the person wants to perceive because of a probable irrational bias.
Above applies to everyone.
Agagooga | 29-Jan-08 at 1:05 am | Permalink
What is truth?
e pur si muove
iantimothy | 29-Jan-08 at 2:49 am | Permalink
Apparently whatever you believe.
Wendy’s Wendylicious Whims » Blog Archive » What I have against City Harvest Church | 29-Jan-08 at 8:20 am | Permalink
[...] had a few thoughts as I was reading this article, and a response to it. I’ve attended City Harvest on quite a few occassions since I was Sec 3 [...]
zackett | 15-Feb-08 at 4:18 am | Permalink
Fantastic article. But there’s just one BIG problem. You’ve grasped what it means to love. But you haven’t grasp what it means to love the Lord Jesus Christ. Big difference that.
Loving the Lord means obedience. Disobedience is rebellion, akin to witchcraft.
Loving the Lord isn’t about wanting to hang out with the Dude.
What’s the point of hanging out with the Dude if everytime the Dude commands obedience, you say,’Nope, aint gonna do it.’
C’mon man, this is THE DUDE - Lord Almighty, Ancient of Days, Creator. Not some third-rate Jedi wannabe, not your high school buddy.
And obedience is all about our human will. Will you or will you not obey? If you obey, you love. If you disobey, you are not loving. (No matter how much you wanna hang out with the Dude.) And if you persist in disobeying again and again ….well, you know very well which way you’re headed.
Ian On The Red Dot :: Why Should I Obey God? | 15-Feb-08 at 3:24 pm | Permalink
[...] was a comment for this post which I found interesting. Below are the parts I want to highlight Loving the Lord means obedience. Disobedience is rebellion, akin to witchcraft. Loving the Lord [...]
wjm86 | 03-Jun-08 at 4:05 pm | Permalink
Hi Ian I must really say that I appreciate the amount of thought that you’ve put into your posts and that they’re really very sensible, intelligent and honest. I would love to have friendly discussions with you on these matters.
On the suject of love and obedience, I agree with you that one can be obedient and yet not loving. One aspect I’d like to bring up is that the God we are talking about is the Almighty God who’s gracious and loving yet fully capable of zapping us into a pile of ashes(lol). I feel that the kind of love and attitude that we should have towards God is one of a child to a father. We love our dads and always want to hang out and have fun with them, sometimes joking and even poking fun at them. However, there is always a respect and reverence that we should have for our fathers, a line that we never cross because of who they are. This is where we do what we are told because we love or Father God. The perfect obedience-love relationship can be seen in Jesus’s relationship with Father God, that He obeyed the Father even unto death.
The same goes for our love towards Jesus, that it should be a revered love towards our Lord. There is also to be a balance, where Jesus also desires to be our friend and who knows, He might just turn out to be a really fun loving person!
We, as imperfect people, will always be unable to adhere to and to obey each and every commandment in the bible. Everybody has his own weakness and shortcoming and it is really God’s grace that helps us to be able to continue walking with our heads up high without shame. What really matters is that we try our best to love God and obey His commandments. That, I believe is what really pleases God and why Jesus died on the cross for us.
This leads to the last point: how we should act. I feel that we should base our actions on our best morals and convictions and also our best interpretations on the Word of God. We shouldn’t just blindly accept what others tell us as the truth or what is right, but should carefully think about the content’s soundness (not the best word I can think of) and sensibility (This will lead to another discussion about truth but lets not delve into that now). However, we should also stay receptive of other’s opinions as they do offer us a venue for improvement. Lastly, this is also quite abstract: being led by the spirit, that we do what we do because the Holy Spirit tells us to. This is quite a prickly matter to explain to people but I’m sure you do understand what I am trying to drive at having attended City Harvest.
Do reply to me regarding your thoughts and opinions. Cheers!
iantimothy | 03-Jun-08 at 4:40 pm | Permalink
Hello wjm86. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It is greatly appreciated and I enjoyed reading your comment.
Justin | 05-Oct-08 at 2:45 pm | Permalink
Amen.
I’m a City Harvester, and I agree with everything you’ve said. Also, about the prosperity message, I’d just like to point this one out- giving to the Lord is giving in Faith he’ll repay you with every single bit. The prosperity message in CHC is actually more of encouraging us to give to the Lord, not to the church. We can’t give directly to God, so the next best is when we help to build God’s house. Isn’t that what Solomon did? Is anything wrong with encouraging people to give to God’s house?
psyche | 12-Oct-08 at 6:19 pm | Permalink
http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/st…179657,00.html
why do city harvest support fraudulent pastors?